Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir

dear hated-in i had the oppurtunity of going through one of ur links which u sent in the morning regarding slow eviction of kashmiri pandits from the kashmir valley..i was particulalry interested because the site mentions the figures about the total population of kashmiri pandits in the valley since 1931..the link is also appreciated by my brother ABC and why not...we are ignorent of the facts...now let me justify the reasons why admin bans such (propaganda) sites..me or u were not even alive during 1941 or 1947 so i am not justifying anything here..i am just going through the official figures....first i will highlight some of the figures from the website...

Quote :

Some 30,000 to 40,000 families are said to have moved out of Kashmir in the 1931-41 decade.

now let me give u the official figures...the total population of the kashmir valley according to census of 1941 was 14,64,034 out of which 12,99,611 were muslims and 94,423 were hindus(6.44%)..now the site mentions migration of 40,000 families from kashmir during a decade ..even if we keep minimum members per family as 8(which is on the lower side as in those days a couple would give birth to an average of 6 to 8 children.) then the total number of people who actually migrated comes to around 3,20,000...it is quite impossible because the census figures of 1891 puts the total muslim population as 7,57,433 and total hindu population as 52,576..both the populations getting almost doubled in a span of 50 years which sounds logical..
going by the above numbers given in the site the total population of hindus in 1941 comes to around 4,00,000 which is humanly impossible for a community to increase its population by 3,50,000 in a short span of 50 years..

Quote :

According to the 1941 census, the Kashmir Valley's population comprised 19 per cent Pandits as against 81 per cent Muslims. Twenty-five or even 30 per cent would be a more realistic figure for the Pandits at that time.

as i have already given the official figures the total percentage of hindu population in kashmir according to census of 1941 was 6.44...

Quote :

India's independence and Kashmir's accession did little to improve the fortunes of the Valley's Pandits numbering about 800,000 at that time.

according to the site population of pandits in 1947 was 8,00,000..does that mean the pandits had increased there population from 94,423 in 1941 to 8 lacs in 1947..that means an increase of 7 lacs in just 6 years...!!!!!

Quote :

The 1981 census put the Pandits' number at a little over 124,000 in a total population of 3.1 million. Their share in the Valley's population was down to five per cent as against 15 per cent in the 1941 census with a corresponding rise in the-percentage of Muslims, up from 83 per cent in 1941 to 95 per cent in 1981

no sir..the population of hindus was 6% in 1941 census and 5% in 1981 census..and the population of muslims in kashmir has always been around 95%...i am quoting pandit jawahar lal nehru from his book "the discovery of india"....

Quote :

in kashmir a long continued process of conversion to islam had resulted in 95% of the population becoming muslims though they retained many of there old hindu customs.

i have not written anywhere any personal opinion of anyone but have quoted only official figures..

i agree with u but only when they are state subjects and if they settle under normal conditions and not by demanding a seperate homeland..not only muslims but even pandits oppose such a fanatic idea by the BJP backed group..i quote from a kashmiri pandit website posted by hated-in...

Quote :

The Pandits' rehabilitation in the Kashmir Valley will, obviously, have to await restoration of normalcy there. Equally obviously they cannot go back to their old homes and be subjected, once again, to old vulnerabilities. Their anguish, which has given rise to the demand for Panun, or a separate 'homeland' withing the Valley, north- east of the Jhelum river, is to be understood.

I must, however, add that I personally have no sympathy with this demand. Partitions do not resolve problems; they tend to multiply them. Security of life for the Pandits can be ensured in more pragmatic ways.

i totally agree with this view...

Anon wrote:

no sir..the population of hindus was 6% in 1941 census and 5% in 1981 census..and the population of muslims in kashmir has always been around 95%...i am quoting pandit jawahar lal nehru from his book "the discovery of india"....

Mr. peace. first of all thank you for correcting the figures. It helps more if you contradict and correct the facts as you have done rather than simply labeling a site as a propaganda site and banning it. I will go by the census figures for now as you pointed out.

However, this still brings up the issue that 5% of your population (minorities) were ethnically cleansed out of the Kashmir Valley by your so called "freedom fighters" which by an large find support in a good section of Kashmiri Muslim population of the valley. I am still waiting for a reaction from you regarding this. Do you think this was right or wrong? Who was responsible for it? Who supported the people who were responsible for it? And if you think this was wrong then shouldn't people who perpetrated such crimes be tried and punished for it - like any democracy should do?

Anon wrote:

This is what Panun Kashmir aspires for, same as some groups that aspire for 'Azadi'.

Its not same given that both Kashmiri Pandits and Ladhak buddhist in their efforts to gain freedom from "Kashmir Valley" are not using any violent means by any sense of the word.

Quote :

Its not same given that both Kashmiri Pandits and Ladhak buddhist in their efforts to gain freedom from "Kashmir Valley" are not using any violent means by any sense of the word.

Agreed.

Quote :

However, this still brings up the issue that 5% of your population (minorities) were ethnically cleansed out of the Kashmir Valley by your so called "freedom fighters" which by an large find support in a good section of Kashmiri Muslim population of the valley

You guys seem to be in some sort of denial to not see that by mere citing propaganda sites that you havent achieved anything. It simply underscores our viewpoint that there are no news reports, or any unbiased sources that would verify your claims that pandits were driven out by militants. I think this whole exercise by admin seems to have gone waste as there is no reasoning with you guys.

the closest that you have come is cite one report from hrw that indicates that there was "some attack on a pandit family". That does not justify the mass exodus of the whole community. Clearly there was some ecouragement from Jagmohan to facilitate this.

For the umpteenth time, provide some news reports that would mention that:

-militants used mosques to order the pandits out
-militatns horded all pandits out of there homes, separated the females and committed rapes. this would justify accusing "all" militants as rapists and barbarians. Although every single rape is heinous and justifies severe punishment to the perpetrators, a few criminal activities by bad apples among the militants does not justify labelling them all as rapists - unless you can prove that militants methodically swarmed a village, separated the males and committed this act as a way to terrorize the pandits. This you cannot prove, because this never happened. Althoug kilo earlier on in this thread has posted a new york times report from 1991 which shows the Indian army doing exactly the same on muslims. why is it that we can provide news reports and you keep posting propaganda sites?

Stop hijacking the thread to change the topic. this is what the thread was started to debate so lets get this over with and then we can go over other census details

@rptr

I guess you are too much flooded here with too many links.
kindly go back and you find that all of the points you have mentioned are having references.

All charges are mentioned in HRW reports, just go page 3 and 4 of this forum for your references of all the atrocities including rape, murders, mass harrassing, loudspeakers etc perpetrated towards Pandits.

There is specific usage of word "Targeted" in the reports.

Go through the links on page 3 and 4

Mr rptr,

You specifically asked for reports from HRW and Indian newspapers (which do not have archieves on the web dating back to 1991) and for your convenience I am reposting a sampling of those posts for your convenience which mention specific killings threats:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/7.htm
In July 2005, five Hindu men were separated from their Muslim neighbors by alleged militants, and their throats slit.488 In 2003, after militants killed twenty-four Hindu pandits in Nadimarg near Srinagar, including eleven women and two children, many pandits fled to Hindu-majority Jammu.489 They joined the nearly sixty thousand Hindu families who have been internally displaced from Muslim majority areas by the threats and attacks of militant groups.490 Recent attempts by moderate separatist leaders to bring them back home have been opposed by militants, who issued a statement in July 2005 saying: “We impose a ban on the return of Kashmiri pandit migrants to the Valley.”491


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/3.htm
Hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris, known as “pandits,” fled the valley. Militant groups that espoused an extremist Islamist ideology issued threats to shopkeepers and others engaged in business that they considered un-Islamic, including liquor dealers and cinema hall owners

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm
In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-01.htm
In recent years, militants in both states have committed numerous, serious violations of humanitarian law, including direct attacks on unarmed civilians, indiscriminate attacks, summary executions, hostage-taking, rape, threats to commit bodily harm, and the use of religious sites for military purposes.(3)

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm
The most serious of these have been the murders of hundreds of civilians, both Muslim and Hindu, who have been targeted because of their suspected support for the Indian government, or because they otherwise opposed the policies or practices of one or another of the militant groups.
Many of the attacks were also clearly intended to drive Hindu Kashmiris out of the state.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm
In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.
One month later, JKLF militants abducted the daughter of Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, then freed her when the government gave in to demands for the release of five detained militants.
On January 19, 1990, the central government imposed direct rule on the state.
Militant groups stepped up their attacks, murdering and threatening Hindu residents, carrying out kidnappings and assassinations of government officials, civil servants, and suspected informers, and engaging in sabotage and bombings. With the encouragement and assistance of the government, some 100,000 Hindu Kashmiris, known as "Pandits," fled the valley.

This links shows the exodus in 2003, due to muslim millitants, read the first two paragraph:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E0D91530F936A15750C0A9659C8B63

This is from 1990 showing the flee and stay back with muslim support in some areas:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806EFD81539F933A05750C0A9659C8B63
read the second para:
That decision proved fateful. Late last Sunday or early Monday, 24 Hindu Brahmins, or Kashmiri Pandits, as they are known, were executed in the village of Nandimarg by gunmen dressed in Indian army uniforms.

This is from 1991:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D8173CF936A2575AC0A967958260&sec=&spon=
"Last year, thousands of Kashmiri Hindu families including Mr. Koul's fled Srinagar, the summer capital of Kashmir, and other towns as the power of pro-independence Muslim militants grew and hostility sharpened toward native Hindus, especially the high caste Brahmins."

Below is the links of the Freedom Fighters aka Millitants being captured, Read the links it clearly says "Targeted Killings", which is called masscare and Riots.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DD1238F934A3575BC0A966958260
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE1639F932A05750C0A966958260

From Burning Books and Leveling Libraries by Rebecca Knuth (page 77):
In 1989, attacks on the Pandits escalated, and Muslim paramilitaries selectively tortured, murdered, and raped Pandits, using particularly gruesome techniques to underscore their demands that Pandits leave Kashmir forever. The Pandits fled en masse, carrying only a few articles of clothing. Thereupon, the militants plundered and set fire to pandit properties and temples and destroyed their artworks and sculptures. Images of living beings were offensive to fundamentalist Muslims. Books were favored targets perhaps standing for their owners. Sometimes militants piled books up and set them on fire, chanting "death to the Pandits"

From My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects for Enduring Peace (page 76)
by Wajahat Habibullah (special commissioner, Anantnag 1990 and later Minster of various ministries in central govt.)

I asked the delegation if they knew me-one of my earliest posting was in Anantnag in 1971-and, if so, did they believe that I, a Muslim like them, would actually be the instrument of such a plan? Their response was that I had been kept in the dark and that they were privy to "secret" information. I told them quite clearly that it was hardly surprising that Pandits were apprehensive. Any minority would be if places of worship of the majority were continually used to blare strident threats to them over loudspeakers - as every mosque was at the time - and if prominent members of their community had been murdered. (I learned later that these inflammatory sermons and their reverberating public applause were audio recordings circulated to mosques to be played over loudspeakers at prayer time.) I also told them that such use of a sacred place was no less than desecration and contempt for the faith. Local Muslims needed to reassure the Pandits of their safety. The administration would readily provide security whenever a threat to the Pandits was anticipated, but its effectiveness would be doubtful without public support.

From Kashmir in Conflict: India, Pakistan and the Unending War, Page 152
By Victoria Schofield
There was an still is, however, a widespread feeling that the departure of the Hindus was not neccessary and that Jagmohan, who had a reputation for being anti-Muslim dating back to the days of the Emergency, attempted to give the Kashmiri problem a communal profile by facilitating their departure in government transport (trucks). It was an allegation he (Jagmohan) strongly refuted:

What can you say of a Committee which comes out with a proposition that it is not the fearsome envionment, it is not the brutalised landcape, it is not the ruthless Kalashnikov of the marauders, it is not the bomb explosions and fires, it is not the threatening telephonic class, it is not the hysterical exhortations for "Jihad" from hundreds of loudspeakers fitted on the mosques... but the inducements of the trucks that have impelled the Kashmiris to abondon their homes and hearths in the cool and crisp Valley and to move to the hot and inhospitable (refugee) camps of Jammu.

For reporter: you would find some more details in HRW report from 1993 which mentions notices being stuck on the doors of Kashmiri Pandits and a couple of instances of Pandit nurses being violated. I am sure if you give me enough time I can come up with more such references. The problem is not that these are not documented, the problem is that none of the Indian news sites that you pointed about above have archives dating back to 1989-91 period.

Quote :

You specifically asked for reports from HRW and Indian newspapers (which do not have archieves on the web dating back to 1991)

That must be so convenient for you to not be able to provide a "SINGLE" newspaper report.

No one is denying that pandits were targets just as many pro-india muslims were targets of some militant organisations. This is evident from the links and excerpts that you have provided above from HRW. Yet, more muslims were targets than all the pandit deaths put together till date.

Even then, in the HRW links that you provided, nowhere mentions the following: that "pandits specifically" were the target of mass rapes, and that muslims used mosque loudspeakers to order the pandits to leave kashmir. (except for the "opnion" of some author named "Rebecca Knuth" that I dont even care to read because it is her personal biased opinion)

This was the basis for which this thread started, so stop diverting the topic.

Lets give it one more try:

News reports or articles from "Reputed news organisation" not opinion articles...

-militants used mosques to order the pandits out
-militatns horded all pandits out of there homes, separated the females and committed rapes. this would justify accusing "all" militants as rapists and barbarians. Although every single rape is heinous and justifies severe punishment to the perpetrators, a few criminal activities by bad apples among the militants does not justify labelling them all as rapists - unless you can prove that militants methodically swarmed a village, separated the males and committed this act as a way to terrorize the pandits. This you cannot prove, because this never happened. Althoug kilo earlier on in this thread has posted a new york times report from 1991 which shows the Indian army doing exactly the same on muslims. why is it that we can provide news reports and you keep posting propaganda sites?

It is surprising how Kilo could come up with an article from 1991 mentioning the mass rapes committed by Indian army and yet you argue that not a single paper in the whole world covered the "mass rapes" and "ethnic cleansing" of pandits by "barbaric kashmiri muslim militants"! yet they had the time and resources to cover the brutalities by Indian army on muslims of Kashmir! I know why, maybe its because those never happened.
https://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-15.htm#862

@rptr

May you are not reading the links provided on page 3,4 and by Hated in, Its all in there.

Now if you may suggest HRW next time to mention in detail how the rape was done, and how many were raped by how many, and did they record what was spoken by loudspeaker.

Read the links provided, you claim dosent hold and there are not one but numerous ......... but only if you read.....

@united

I read each and every one of the "Propaganda" sites.

Thats what they are "PROPAGANDA" not reliable, trustworthy, unbiased sites.

HRW is relaible, trustworthy, and unbiased.
New York Times is a reliable international site.

here are the untrustworthy "Opinions" apart from which you have no other reliable sources!!

ikaashmir.org is not (biased propaganda site)
Dailyherald.com is not (hindutva mouthpiece based out of United states - biased propaganda site)
opinion aritcle on rediff.com (author is Mr Koul!! therefore biased opinion article, also written 15 yrs later in 2003!!)
opinion of wajahat habibullah....another opinion..where are the news?

Victoria Schoffield says this "....it is not the hysterical exhortations for "Jihad" from hundreds of loudspeakers fitted on the mosques"
Let me see if my english understanding is correct, call for jihad somehow translates to ordering the Pandits out of Kashmir from these loudspeakers???

jammu-kashmir.com (biased propaganda site)
iref.homestead.com(biased propaganda site)
faithfreedom.org(biased propaganda site)
panunkashmir.org(biased propaganda site)

As you can see 99% of your evidence comes from untrustworthy biased sites who clearly have an agenda in propagating lies against kashmiri muslims.

All you ahve to do is provide a serious unbiased link and you will have me as a believer, otherwise the conclusion is already clear.

For the LAST TIME this is what the thread was started for you to prove: kindly stop beating around the bush

Provide an unbiased, reliable, reputed news source that mentions the following:

-militants used mosques to order the pandits out
-militatns horded all pandits out of there homes, separated the females and committed rapes. this would justify accusing "all" militants as rapists and barbarians. Although every single rape is heinous and justifies severe punishment to the perpetrators, a few criminal activities by bad apples among the militants does not justify labelling them all as rapists - unless you can prove that militants methodically swarmed a village, separated the males and committed this act as a way to terrorize the pandits. This you cannot prove, because this never happened. Althoug kilo earlier on in this thread has posted a new york times report from 1991 which shows the Indian army doing exactly the same on muslims. why is it that we can provide news reports and you keep posting propaganda sites?

@rptr

I am not sure if you are not reading the post by ABC and Hated-in

They are from HRW sites
And more than a dozen links are provided from HRW,NYtimes,UNHCR website which clearly mention the fact.

I am not talking of so called propoganda sites.

Read HRW,NYtimes, links on page 3,4 and page 8 by hated in..

It will be futile repaste them here ... as it will be confusing for other readers, why we are reposting...

I am repeating this 3 or 4th time that you can read the unbiased HRW/NYTime links on page 3,4,8
They have clear mention of the proofs that you are looking.

I read them all my friend and no where does it mention the rapes and use of mosque loudspeakers.

All they mention is the killing of pandits but in the same breath mention the killing of NC workers and pro-india kashmiri muslims.

Therefore you guys have lost this argument which was whether muslim militants engaged in mass rapes of pandit women, and whether they used mosque loudspeakers to order the pandits out. You could not provide reliable news stories to back these claims so therefore you are in self-denial if you still propagate this lie. The militants never engaged in those barbaric deeds such as mass rapes of which only the indian army is guilty of, although there are just 2 or 3 sad cases wehre pandit sisters were victims of rape, but these are more criminal activities rather than a systematic terror weapon used by the militants. And the mosques were never used to order the pandits out of kashmir.

You guys are willingly believing in a lie. open your minds.

No one is denying that pandits were killed just as muslims were the target of militants. But that is not the topic of this thread. Stop mixing the issues

@rptr

Code:

No one is denying that pandits were killed just as muslims were the target of militants. But that is not the topic of this thread. Stop mixing the issues

You are just not reading the articles its not acceptable

The articles from HRW clearly says that these were Targeted Killing against Hindus of the Valley.
and Not muslim

And in the cause of Jihad if a muslim (commoner) dies he also goes to heaven, as the millitant himself.

Are you from JKLF by any chance?

I have paste it here now.



In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.

One month later, JKLF militants abducted the daughter of Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, then freed her when the government gave in to demands for the release of five detained militants.

On January 19, 1990, the central government imposed direct rule on the state.

Militant groups stepped up their attacks, murdering and threatening Hindu residents, carrying out kidnappings and assassinations of government officials, civil servants, and suspected informers, and engaging in sabotage and bombings. With the encouragement and assistance of the government, some 100,000 Hindu Kashmiris, known as "Pandits," fled the valley.




Now Please read the articles, its not acceptable inspite of telling you exact page number you are still claiming the same lie.
The above is from Page 3 of this thread.

I cant paste the link as I am a guest only

You can go to page 3.

Now Adios my friend, As I believe that you are one among them.

If you are one among them you wont ever believe or be convinced.

Here is the link,
And read the HRW posts with open mind.

Code:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm

In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.

One month later, JKLF militants abducted the daughter of Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, then freed her when the government gave in to demands for the release of five detained militants.

On January 19, 1990, the central government imposed direct rule on the state.

Militant groups stepped up their attacks, murdering and threatening Hindu residents, carrying out kidnappings and assassinations of government officials, civil servants, and suspected informers, and engaging in sabotage and bombings. With the encouragement and assistance of the government, some 100,000 Hindu Kashmiris, known as "Pandits," fled the valley.

united brother you are not reading my post. calm down and read my posts clearly.

no where does it mention the rapes and use of mosque loudspeakers

No one is denying that pandits were killed just as muslims were the target of militants. But that is not the topic of this thread. Stop mixing the issues

Mr rptr,

Please don't get stuck on semantics. As far as exodus of Kashmiri Pandits are concerned we don't care whether there were "mass rapes" or a "large number of rapes". The difference is minute in any case. Beyond that these reports clearly point out that 1) a significant number of minorities were raped by the militants, 2) Hindus (Pandits) were specifically targeted and killed beginning with leading members of Pandit society in Kashmir Valley, and 3) specific attempts by militants to get rid of Pandits through terror techniques such as posting notes on their doors to get out, 4) HRW also clearly points out calls of Jihad being given about of Mosques and this is further corroborated by neutral authors and influencial people on ground such as Jagmohan and others. You may find it ok to give out calls of Jihad from Mosques, we personally find it quite detestable and extremely repulsive that people in Kashmir Valley will even allow such use of their religious places of workship. This combined with the terrorist acts that were inflicted on the minority community of Kashmir Valley clearly point out to the prevelent mentality in the valley at the time that wreaked havoc on the Kashmiri Pandit community at large and Kashmir Valley in general.

@rptr

Now HRW should be advised that for the following detail

1. who raped
2. how many were raped
3. how many got kidnapped
4. while raping their males of the family were with them or not.
5. Exactly what was the day,
6. how many family members were with the victim.
7. victims names

True,
I should not expect anything from you.

Here you go
After telling more than 5 times, you have not gone back to page 3 and 4
And its no good to ask what exactly was spoken from loudspeakers and as being detailed for reasons on page 3 and 4

but still use of loudspeaker was so wide and notable that it got reported in HRW
Now if you want to know what exact words were being used from loudspeakers
I hope that I could have got the tape which was used to display from mosques.

Code:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/5.htm

From the mosques, loudspeakers urged Kashmiris to come out and fight for azaadi, or freedom. Thousands of Kashmiris gathered to protest the actions of the security forces.128

Code:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/india0906webwcover.pdf

Jagmohan was appointed on January 19, 1990. That night, in response to the kidnapping of
Rubaiya Sayeed and other militant attacks, Indian security forces conducted warrantless and thus
illegal house-to-house searches in Srinagar, hunting for illegal weapons or other evidence of
support to the militants. They dragged many people out of their beds into the bitter cold. Many
Kashmiris complained that they were beaten and abused.126 Jagmohan maintains that he had
nothing to do with the decision.127
The next morning, as word of the searches and beatings began to spread, people began to pour out into
the streets of Srinagar. From the mosques, loudspeakers urged Kashmiris to come out and fight.

@rptr,

The links provided are from HRW and NY Times and they do answer your queries.

As far as your contention that the killings/atrocities were carried out by bad apples amongst the militants, exactly the same argument can be used to justify the atrocities carried out by CRPF. It is easy to do - but saying so is going away from the truth and shirking one's moral responsibility.

CRPF is a force that we Indians physically and morally support. Most of the Indians on this forum accept that even though the atrocities that CRPF is accused of carrying out were carried out by a few bad apples amongst the Force, we, as Indians, are morally responsible for all and any atrocities committed by any member of CRPF. Only by accepting that honestly can we move forward to addressing the atrocious acts of CRPF.

Kashmiri Muslims need to read the links (see above) that you asked for, in the format that you asked for, of the type that you asked for, for the proofs that you asked for, and make peace with a reality that you feel uncomfortable to accept. Then you need to go beyond accepting that reality and accept some moral responsibility for the acts of people that you morally (and some say physically) supported all these years.

No further arguments from me.

The evidence is clear for readers to make their own minds.

The rapes against muslim sisters was committed by an entire battallion of regular Indian army regiment called the "rajputana rifles". This indicates that it was a warfare technique and the whole indian army and government faces blames for this. So far more than 3000 cases of rapes have been committed in kashmir. these qualify as mass rapes by the indian army

The few rapes that are blamed on militants are by criminals because they did not methodically cordon off a village and systematically separate the women. The few rapes were the handiwork of criminals.

Therefore like I said you guys want to live with the propaganda, that is your choice, but any one can separate the propaganda and hate from reasonable arguments on this forum.

Here is a NYT articel from 1991

Quote :

According to a report filed by S. M. Yasin, district magistrate in Kupwara, the regional center, the armed forces "behaved like violent beasts." He identified them as members of the Fourth Rajputana Rifles and said they rampaged through the village from 11 P.M. on Feb. 23 until 9 the next morning.

"A large number of armed personnel entered into the houses of villagers and at gunpoint they gang-raped 23 ladies, without any consideration of their age, married, unmarried, pregnancy etc.," he wrote. "There was a hue and cry in the whole village." Local people say that as many as 100 women were molested in some way.

A pediatrician who is a member of the Jammu and Kashmir People's Basic Rights Committee, a citizens' group that visited Kunan soon after, said a woman had subsequently given birth to a child with bones that were fractured during the rape. Longtime Judge Is Outraged

Justice Bahauddin Farooqi, former chief justice of the state's High Court, said that in his 43 years on the bench, he had never seen a case in which normal investigative procedures were ignored as they were in this one.

Code:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D6163FF934A35757C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

You guys have lost the arguments.

- You set about claiming that muslims used the mosque speakers to order the pandits out and now claim that ..."oh yeah, by the way they didnt exactly speicify that pandits shouls leave, they were just calling for people to fight the indians, of which we didnt approve, so we left"

-you guys set out blaming muslims for mass rapes and now dont even know how many were raped but want to give the impression that there were mass rapes even though there were just a few and even those were committed by criminals.

Its such a waste to discuss here,
After telling 5 times to refer to page 3,4,8 i have to copy paste to convince just one member

Mr Rptr has taken one whole page to get convinced for use of rapes, kidnapping, loudspeakers, murders, and Targeted killing of Hindus and KP exodus due to Millitant threats and atrocities.

I hope that each single user of this forum before any specific concern should refer to page 3,4,8 for the following

1. Loudspeaker usage as threat.
2. Rapes, Kidnapping, Assault, atrocities
3. Target Killing of Hindus
4. Exodus of KPs
5. Role of Jagmohan.
6. Role of Millitants.

If all the links on page 3,4,8 are read with open mind, then the picture will emerge clear to most readers.

And what I want to add here is that these are only online material available,

I will advise some of our Kashmiri who want to learn more about the events to visit a local library and go through the newspaper from 1989-1990 to know the events. The online available material is not necessarily sufficient as 20 years ago incidents get archived and removed.

But the facts dosent change, and I find it disheartning that in this forum Victim's voice hold no value.

If I was a victim myself or eyewitness and my voice doesnt hold a value just because its not reported in HRW, then that dosent mean the incident didnt happen.

Kashmiris should visit local library and search through archives from 1989 1990 newpaper if they want more detailed information and not word of mouth on the street.