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PostSubject: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:20 am

Hello everyone,

I beleive it will be in the best interest of setting the record straight by stating my cocncluding remarks on this heated topic. These are my beleifs which were reinforced by the heated discussion on this thread:

  • The muslims of Kashmir were not responsible for the exodus of the Pandits.

  • That a small number of unscrpulous members of the Pandit community are spewing false propaganda by claiming that the muslims colluded in large scale raping of our Pandit sisters.

  • That the same propaganda goes on to falsely accuse muslims of using mosque loud-speakers to order the Padits to leave Kashmir.

As this month-long debate on this thread has proven, these allegations are a figment of imagination of hate-mongers. When members asked them to prove these accusations by citing reliable sources, all they provided was links to hate-filled hindutva websites whose sole purpose is to spew baseless propaganda.

I would like to point out some reactions of members to the sources provided:

Quote :
By kilo
1. Kashmiri pandits were not targeted specifically by kashmiri muslims. or there was no mass hatred of Pandits by muslims. some pandits were defintiely targeted by militants just as they targeted muslims. Both are wrong and condemnable but my point is that a majority of kashmiri muslims did not support that pandits left kashmir, and a absolutley not going to take it lightly if they are accused of being accessory to the raping their pandit sisters.

2. the myth that mosque loudspeakerrs were used to order the pandits to leave has been shattered. the hrw site would have mentioend about that jsut as it mentioned that mosque loudspeakers were used to ask people to come out and join the azaadi marches.

Pasted from <http://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-45.htm>

Quote :
By rprtr
You guys have lost the arguments.

- You set about claiming that muslims used the mosque speakers to order the pandits out and now claim that ..."oh yeah, by the way they didnt exactly speicify that pandits shouls leave, they were just calling for people to fight the indians, of which we didnt approve, so we left"

-you guys set out blaming muslims for mass rapes and now dont even know how many were raped but want to give the impression that there were mass rapes even though there were just a few and even those were committed by criminals.

Pasted from <http://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-120.htm>


Last edited by Admin on Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:43 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: hated-in's post   Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:24 am

Quote :
Reporter wrote:

Anon's claim was outrageous because he accused the Kashmiri muslims on the whole of being part of this heinous crime and of comitting crimes against our Pandit sisters, while using our mosque speakers to encourage others to participate in these crimes. The sources that you provide are not new and no will dispute those allogations.

First I thought you were indulging in misinformation, but perhaps, you are young enough to be fortunate enough to not have have witnessed (either directly or indirectly) the 1989-91 period in Kashmir. Some events are better forgotten. Here are some references to directly corraborate what Anon was pointing out.

Rediff.com - Indian News Website
Quote :
Has Taj Mohi-u-Din heard the venomous threats that were blasted through mosques' loudspeakers during late 1989 and early 1990? Has he seen the advertisements published in Kashmiri newspapers during the late 1980s and early 1990s? Does he know that those advertisements demanded Kashmiri Hindus to leave Kashmir within 24 hours or be killed? Does he remember the slogans in which Islamic terrorists demanded that they want Kashmir without Kashmiri Hindu males but with Kashmiri Hindu females? Does he remember all that? And he has the gall to say that Kashmiri Muslims never wanted the Pandits out?

Daily Herald - Chicago, Illinois, US Newspaper
Quote :
The exodus began on Jan. 19. Just after Friday prayer, mosque loudspeakers began blasting slogans, saying Kashmir was only for those willing to say, "Allah is great." Mobs encircled Hindu homes. Rioters screamed, "Nizam-e-Mustafa," or "Islamic rule." The Indian government did not respond right away. "We saw it as sporadic violence. We failed to understand the game plan," says Inspector General of Police K. Rajendra Kumar in Srinagar. "When India reacted, it was too late."

In Habbakadal, their neighborhood, militants threw henna into Hindu houses, a powder used to decorate the hands of Indian brides. The accompanying notes said, "Get your daughters ready. We are coming to make them Muslim girls." A poster glued to the Kouls' door said, "Infidels leave Kashmir." By early summer, they were one of only two Hindu families left. When rebels broke into the only other Hindu house and sprayed the family with bullets, Koul's mother called for a taxi.

From Burning Books and Leveling Libraries by Rebecca Knuth (page 77):
Quote :
In 1989, attacks on the Pandits escalated, and Muslim paramilitaries selectively tortured, murdered, and raped Pandits, using particularly gruesome techniques to underscore their demands that Pandits leave Kashmir forever. The Pandits fled en masse, carrying only a few articles of clothing. Thereupon, the militants plundered and set fire to pandit properties and temples and destroyed their artworks and sculptures. Images of living beings were offensive to fundamentalist Muslims. Books were favored targets perhaps standing for their owners. Sometimes militants piled books up and set them on fire, chanting "death to the Pandits"

From Explore Kashmiri Pandits[/i]
Quote :
In July 1988, the Jammu kashmir Liberation front (JKLF, a terrorist organization) offically launched its jihad... In late 1989, JKLF began the ethnic cleansing ... In next few months numerous Kashmiri Pandits were slaughtered,..., and Sarwanand premi, an 80 year old poet whose wife and son were kidnapped, tortured, their eyes gouged out, and hanged to death. A Kashmiri Pandit nurse working at the Soura Medical College Hospital in Srinagar was gang-raped and then beaten to death. Another women was abducted, raped, and sliced into pieces by a sawmill.

In the early days of January 1990, masked terrorists filled the streets in Srinagar, waving Kalashnikovs, shooting to kill and shouting anti-India slogans. Inflammatory speeches were made from the pulpits of mosques, using public address systems for calling the faithful to prayers. Walls were plastered with posters and handbills, summarily ordering all Kashmiris to strictly follow the Islamic dress code, prohibiting the sale and consumption of alcoholic drinks, and imposing a ban on video parlors and cinemas. The masked men with Kalashnikovs forced people to reset their watches and clocks to Pakistan Standard Time. Notices were pasted on the doors of Pandit houses, asked them to leave Kashmir within 24 hours or face death. Slogans such as "Be one with us, or run or die" were shouted at Hindus. The government ceased to exist and the Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah fled the valley leaving Kashmiri Pandits to the mercy of the Muslim terrorists.

[i]On January 19, 1990, Jag Mohan arrived to take control of the political situation ... As evening fell the exhortations become louder and louder and shriller. Three taped slogans were repeatedly played the whole night from mosques:

Kashmir mein agar rahna hai, Allah-O-Akbar kehna hai (If you want to live in Kashmir, you have to say Allah-O-Akbar).

Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa (What we want here is Islamic rule).

Asi gachchi Pakistan, Batao roas te Batanev san (We want Pakistan without the Hindu men, but with the Hindu women).

On the night of January 19, 1990, despondency gave way to desperation as tens of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits across the valley took a painful decision to flee their homeland to save their lives...[i]

Again, the events of 1989-90 clearly indicate that if left alone Kashmir would have turned into a Taliban state. Your freedom struggle, at least between 1989 and 1995, was designed in the backrooms of ISI offices. They were simply trying to do to Kashmir what had already been done to Afghanistan - waging an armed struggle through the exploitation of religious fanaticism in order to wrest Kashmir away - I wrote a bit about this in an earlier post as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:32 am

@ABC_XYZ,
you may again post your links here, there is no record of those left.

@anon
same for your post, Reporter permanently deleted your posts so you may again post those missing sentences.
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PostSubject: @ALL   Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:48 am

Admin, that as a courageous move. I will give that to you. I will also thank LiberalM, ABC, Hated-in, peace and chinaar for standing up to what they thought was right in their opinions. I think this move on your part is bound to re-define the integrity of this forum. Its is crucial for everyone to listen to dissenting viewpoints and sift through the lies and the exaggerations to develop a balanced perspective. Thats what I am sure all of us
expect from this forum.


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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:54 am

Now that Admin has decided to contravene his own forum rules on allowing questionable sources to be published here, atleast it will vindicate my position that all the sources provided above by hated-in are "opinion" articles written by people whose own sincereties are questionable.

I wrote in one of the other threads about this...here it is

Quote :
Authentic unbiased sources would include something along the lines that liberalM posted; HRW, Amnesty, and news sites such as Times of India, Hindu, and the other Indian national media, or any other reputed international media.

Why is it that the mainstream Indian media has no mention of these supposed incidents? why is it that only biased opinion articles by questionable authors are provided. Is it really the case as Admin pointed out, that the propagators of this lie want to attempt the "a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth" trick?

Even though the mainstream Indian media is rabidly anti-Kashmir and anti-Kashmiri muslim, why is it that even they never reported these incidents? The answer is that because they never occured in the first place.

I hope those who are accusing this forum of "suppression" of free speech and accusing us of discrimination finally cool down and think about what I just said in a calm and logical way. Maybe then it might start to make sense that the enemies of Kashmir have been feeding them lies and they have fallen for that

So as is evident, not a single source is from a reliable repuatable news source. There is a pro-hindutva paper out of US, Mr Koul who wrote for rediff.com and a US writer who doesnt cite her own sources about where she got the information about the rapes from.

so again my main point is that you cannot prove that your opinion is based on "facts" simply by corroborating it with someones elses "opinion". If we are serious about getting this debate any further, provide any source from a reputed national or international new organisation or unbiased organization such as HRW, amnesty, etc etc
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:18 am

@all moderators.

Moderation has been temporarily suspended.
I will handle all moderation for now.
Please PM me if there are any objectionable obscene posts and I will remove them.

Everything else is allowed.
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PostSubject: Re: All deleted posts here for two weeks   Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:15 am

I will second Anon and commend Admin for his courage in putting on this forum something that he/she finds offensive. For the moment, I don't have any problem in participating in a discussion on this forum. I hope our other friends - hated-in, Chinaar also join back in.

The question about this post really revolves around whether Kashmiri Muslims at large participated in large-scale atrocities on Kashmiri Pandits. Personally, I do not believe that ordinary people anywhere (Hindus or Muslims) are capable of carrying out such atrocities over a long period of time. Mob furies, extremely gruesome and tragic as they are, do not last for more than a week. Are armed militants (Hindus/Muslims) trained to instill fear capable of doing such things over a long duration ? - Yes. Are para-military troopers trained to maintain discipline on the streets (by instilling fear) capable of doing such things over a long duration ? - yes. Ordinary people ? No.

I am certain that an innumerable number of Kashmiri Muslims hurt deep inside to see their Hindu brothers and sisters forced to leave under the threat of guns. I am also certain that many of them felt helpless facing down the guns that infiltrated their neighbourhoods. Is it possible that some mosques were commandeered to serve the cause of militants ? - yes, it is possible. Religion has been used as a shield extensively in all militant activities - not just in Kashmir but elsewhere. The Golden Temple was similarly commandeered during Sikh militancy. The Lal Masjid in Islamabad was commandeered similarly in the very recent past for a militant cause.

Although we do not have Anon's original post now, the question then comes down to is whether Anon was implying that all Kashmiri muslims were committing atrocities. Here it is a subjective reading of each individual reacting to the post in his/her own way. I don't have the post in front of me now, but I do not recollect having a sense that Anon was painting a broad-brushed picture of Kashmiri Muslims. He/she was painting a self-experienced picture of atrocities on Pandits but I didn't get a sense that he/she was implying that ordinary Kashmiri muslims were committing those atrocities.

The subsequent news/opinion articles were simply reinforcing the same self-experienced pictures of atrocities on Pandits. I don't think (again) that the articles were implying that ordinary Kashmiri Muslims at large were somehow responsible for everything that happened to Kashmiri Pandits. As someone pointed out after Anon's post, that Anon's post was similar to the videos posted on this site - expressions of self-experiences. It is just as wrong to call the videos 'Indian' brutalities as it is to call the atrocities on Pandits - Kashmiri Muslim brutalities. The atrocities on ordinary Kashmiris are the handiwork of CRPF (para-military force trained to maintain discipline by instilling fear). The atrocities on Kashmiri Pandits were the handiwork of armed militants (trained, armed, and aided by their handlers from across the border in Pakistan). Both must be condemned in the strongest terms.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:35 pm

LiberalM wrote:

The question about this post really revolves around whether Kashmiri Muslims at large participated in large-scale atrocities on Kashmiri Pandits.

From what I can gather from sources, it was mainly JKLF spearheaded by Yasin Malik which carried out these atrocities. Yasin Malik has definitely cooled down since his dark days and JKLF has morphed into more of a political organization rather than the terrorist organization that it used to be.

The main problem here is that governments in India tend to gloss over such acts and that is why people like Yasin Malik, Jagdish Tytler, and Nerandra Modi start thinking of themselves as noble saints fighting for a great cause rather than committing large-scale crimes against humanity. It is indeed a failure of democracy that people such as these are not prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Perhaps the government is too scared to disturb the support base that these people may enjoy in larger community. Although, I do share your opinion that wider communities cannot be held responsible. Only that government needs to be more aggressive and bold in dealing with such cases as and when they arise instead of taking a soft approach.

For reporter: you would find some more details in HRW report from 1993 which mentions notices being stuck on the doors of Kashmiri Pandits and a couple of instances of Pandit nurses being violated. I am sure if you give me enough time I can come up with more such references. The problem is not that these are not documented, the problem is that none of the Indian news sites that you pointed about above have archives dating back to 1989-91 period.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:33 pm

From My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects for Enduring Peace (page 76)
by Wajahat Habibullah (special commissioner, Anantnag 1990 and later Minster of various ministries in central govt.)

I asked the delegation if they knew me-one of my earliest posting was in Anantnag in 1971-and, if so, did they believe that I, a Muslim like them, would actually be the instrument of such a plan? Their response was that I had been kept in the dark and that they were privy to "secret" information. I told them quite clearly that it was hardly surprising that Pandits were apprehensive. Any minority would be if places of worship of the majority were continually used to blare strident threats to them over loudspeakers - as every mosque was at the time - and if prominent members of their community had been murdered. (I learned later that these inflammatory sermons and their reverberating public applause were audio recordings circulated to mosques to be played over loudspeakers at prayer time.) I also told them that such use of a sacred place was no less than desecration and contempt for the faith. Local Muslims needed to reassure the Pandits of their safety. The administration would readily provide security whenever a threat to the Pandits was anticipated, but its effectiveness would be doubtful without public support.

From Kashmir in Conflict: India, Pakistan and the Unending War, Page 152
By Victoria Schofield
There was an still is, however, a widespread feeling that the departure of the Hindus was not neccessary and that Jagmohan, who had a reputation for being anti-Muslim dating back to the days of the Emergency, attempted to give the Kashmiri problem a communal profile by facilitating their departure in government transport (trucks). It was an allegation he (Jagmohan) strongly refuted:

What can you say of a Committee which comes out with a proposition that it is not the fearsome envionment, it is not the brutalised landcape, it is not the ruthless Kalashnikov of the marauders, it is not the bomb explosions and fires, it is not the threatening telephonic class, it is not the hysterical exhortations for "Jihad" from hundreds of loudspeakers fitted on the mosques... but the inducements of the trucks that have impelled the Kashmiris to abondon their homes and hearths in the cool and crisp Valley and to move to the hot and inhospitable (refugee) camps of Jammu.
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PostSubject: Being "PRO-INDIAN" is the root cause   Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:21 pm

Below are the links which has all the colors (Pandits,Sikhs,Muslims) being massacred for being "Pro-Indian".


Source:

"
The upper caste Hindus, who are known as Pandits, have traditionally controlled business and administration in Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, and were regarded as pro-India. A number of Hindus have been killed in the continuing unrest, although the militants also have attacked fellow Muslims.
"

It seems that "Pro-India" is more important factor in riots of 1989-91

And even it continues later:

"
He said that it did not matter whether the slain politician was a Sunni or Shia. He said that it was known to one and all that “Agha was against the Kashmir’s struggle and he deserved this end.”
"


Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:


Question is not that if all muslim community of valley started attacking KPs but the question is what is definition of Millitant?
A Pro-Pakistani or Pro-Freedom fighter with a Gun and who is willing to kill some one is a Milllitant.

Is the message is: Pro-Indian means Death in Kashmir?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:23 pm

i agree with majority of the writings in the posts till now...this is something which was really needed in the forum..unless and untill we do not have both sides of the story it is incomplete.. pandits were forced to leave-agreed..but as someone rightly said they were facilitated by the then governer--the government..pandits were used against the kashmiri movement..however i strongly oppose and do not believe at all that pandit women were raped by kashmiri muslims..someone did mention that too..however i do not agree with liberalM when he defends anon for his remarks regarding the whole of kashmiri muslims..at number of places he would mention pakistan as kashmiri's best buddies and would call kashmiris(whole muslim population) as pakistanis which i strongly condemned at that time too...
however i strongly believe that kashmiri pandits could settle back in kashmir if they have the support of the government...there is no doubt about the local support otherwise how would u justify the pandit population living in kashmir..by not letting them settled here in normal conditions the indian government is making sure its plan of carving out a seperate homeland for them possible..it would seem a thing in air at the moment but needs a closer analysis..what the people are demanding is not just the seperate homeland for the pandits within the kashmir division but along with it settling of around 5 million brahmins who have ancesterol connection with kashmir(which i believe is difficult)...what soes that mean..??..that means changing of the demagraphy of the land if it happens..this is what the kashmiri leadership along with the common man fears..u need to have a logical solution to the problem rather than such fanatic ideas...
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PostSubject: @united today   Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:26 pm

kindly correct ur statement
Quote :
It seems that "Pro-India" is more important factor in riots of 1989-91
they were not riots but muslim uprising against the largest democracy in the world....
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PostSubject: Links   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:03 am

For some reason links in the earlier post didnt go appear,
Hence I am trying againg

Below are the links which has all the colors (Pandits,Sikhs,Muslims) being massacred for being "Pro-Indian".


Source:

"
The upper caste Hindus, who are known as Pandits, have traditionally controlled business and administration in Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, and were regarded as pro-India. A number of Hindus have been killed in the continuing unrest, although the militants also have attacked fellow Muslims.
"

It seems that "Pro-India" is more important factor in riots of 1989-91

And even it continues later:

"
He said that it did not matter whether the slain politician was a Sunni or Shia. He said that it was known to one and all that “Agha was against the Kashmir’s struggle and he deserved this end.”
"


Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:
Another:


Question is not that if all muslim community of valley started attacking KPs but the question is what is definition of Millitant?
A Pro-Pakistani or Pro-Freedom fighter with a Gun and who is willing to kill some one is a Milllitant.

Is the message is: Pro-Indian means Death in Kashmir?
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PostSubject: Pro-Indian is the Root Cause   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:14 am

@Admin/Moderators:
Please delete the above two posts, I have got the idea how to post the links here:

For some reason links in the earlier post didnt go appear,
Hence I am trying againg

Below are the links which has all the colors (Pandits,Sikhs,Muslims) being massacred for being "Pro-Indian".


Code:
Source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D8173CF936A2575AC0A967958260

"
The upper caste Hindus, who are known as Pandits, have traditionally controlled business and administration in Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, and were regarded as pro-India. A number of Hindus have been killed in the continuing unrest, although the militants also have attacked fellow Muslims.
"

It seems that "Pro-India" is more important factor in riots of 1989-91

Code:
And even it continues later:
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20001105a.html

"
He said that it did not matter whether the slain politician was a Sunni or Shia. He said that it was known to one and all that “Agha was against the Kashmir’s struggle and he deserved this end.”
"


Code:
Another:  http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20001103a.html
Another: http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20000321a.html
Another: http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20000419a.html
Another: http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2001/kashmir20010207a.html
Another: http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20000423b.html
Another: http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2007/kashmir20070208c.html
Another: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080067172


Question is not that if all muslim community of valley started attacking KPs but the question is what is definition of Millitant?
A Pro-Pakistani or Pro-Freedom fighter with a Gun and who is willing to kill some one is a Milllitant.

Is the message is: Pro-Indian means Death in Kashmir?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:16 am

@everyone
I would like to join this debate as well.
The crux of this whole debate is whether "mass attricities" "ethnic cleansing" or "large scale" mob attacks on Kashmiri pandits happened during the early days of the armed insurgency in Kashmir. The answer is NO.

The main points that anon wanted to convey in his statement that started all this, as well that other opinion articles posted by hated-in posted suggest are as follows

-that Pandits were the victims of systematic rapes by Kashmiri muslims (using rape as a weapon in a war)
-Muslims used mosque loudspeakers to order the Pandits out of Kashmir

These allegations are false and because those of us who lived through that period and know that allegations are utterly false are left with the only recourse and that is asking the accusers to prove their claims.

I have said it before that if someone were to repeat a lie a thousand times it tends to be percieved as truth.

Right around the same time, pro-india muslims were being systematically muredered as well. I use the term murdered because it was a crime. And the victimes were both Pandits as well as muslims. It will be a given that criminal elements were there among the militants as well, and I do not deny that some pandit families might have become the victims of those 'criminal' elements. But to paint the whole Kashmiri muslim community as being responsible for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits is not correct.

As peace pointed out that there are thousands of Pandits living in Kashmir at the present time and many who never left in the first place.

The
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PostSubject: Simple Logic   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:23 am

Millitants are Kashmiri and they are Muslims

And you accept that Milliants "murdered" and "raped" Pandits.

So I think that with above statement itself its evident that Kashmiri Muslim aka Millitants made the Kashmir Pundits exodus


You may kindly explain why not to say so.
Even Panun-Kashmir website mentions the same.
Also the Videos on You tube which are from KP themselves.

You are right in one statement.
Repeating thousand time a lie will not make it truth.
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PostSubject: Its Just not Pandits   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:28 am

@Admin

Its just not Pandits even Sikhs as evident in my earlier links.

The fact is that Kashimri Millitant (who are muslims as well and they do it all in name of Allah)
have just one bottom line to get rid of all Pro Indian

Rape is just an instrument to harass at wide scale.

I wish KP were having web cams and camcorders so that they could have shots some clips for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:46 am

@united
Quote :
Rape is just an instrument to harass at wide scale.

I would really appreciate if you post some news reports that would corroborate your allegation that muslim "militans" have used rape as a weapon against pandits or pro-india muslims in kashmir.

I can however provide you with many links where Hindu Indian army personnell have used rape as a weapon against kashmiri muslims.



Quote :
India Moves Against Kashmir Rebels

By BARBARA CROSSETTE, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: April 7, 1991
For three days in March, the people of Batamaloo, a middle-class neighborhood here, were victims of India's war against an independence movement it can no longer contain except by force.

They call it "the crackdown," and it can happen, without warning, anywhere in the Kashmir Valley. An area is surrounded, shops are closed, people are confined to their houses or made to stand for hours, other houses are ransacked, women abused, graveyards dug up, mosques violated. The purpose is to ferret out militants and break the morale of their supporters.

At the end of the siege, boys as young as 12 or 14 are taken away for interrogation. In Batamaloo, where more than 100 young men were rounded up on March 27, mothers came out the next day to wail in panic and rage.

"Hindustanis!" some cried, giving their word for Indians the venom of a curse. When they began to march, they were driven back with tear gas and blows from rattan poles. By midmorning, one woman was dead and 20 hospitalized. Women Taking Active Role

In this conservative Muslim society, women have moved to the forefront of demonstrations and also into guerrilla conclaves. No single event has contributed more to this rapidly rising militancy among women than reports of a gang rape a month ago by Indian troops in Kunan, a remote village in northwestern Kashmir.

According to a report filed by S. M. Yasin, district magistrate in Kupwara, the regional center, the armed forces "behaved like violent beasts." He identified them as members of the Fourth Rajputana Rifles and said they rampaged through the village from 11 P.M. on Feb. 23 until 9 the next morning.

"A large number of armed personnel entered into the houses of villagers and at gunpoint they gang-raped 23 ladies, without any consideration of their age, married, unmarried, pregnancy etc.," he wrote. "There was a hue and cry in the whole village." Local people say that as many as 100 women were molested in some way.

A pediatrician who is a member of the Jammu and Kashmir People's Basic Rights Committee, a citizens' group that visited Kunan soon after, said a woman had subsequently given birth to a child with bones that were fractured during the rape. Longtime Judge Is Outraged

Justice Bahauddin Farooqi, former chief justice of the state's High Court, said that in his 43 years on the bench, he had never seen a case in which normal investigative procedures were ignored as they were in this one.

The Indian Government issued a statement saying that the sexual assaults never took place, calling the reports terrorist propaganda. Outraged at that response, Wajahat Habib-ullah, commissoner in charge of magistrates for all of Kashmir, resigned and asked for early retirement from the Indian Adminstrative Service. Mr. Habib-ullah is not a Kashmiri.

[ After a visit to the valley, Saifuddin Soz, a member of the Indian Parliament from Kashmir, asked the caretaker Prime Minister, Chandra Shekhar, to investigate the attack and intervene to stop the harassment of Kashmiris. ]

In Batamaloo, residents of the neighborhood, mostly civil servants and business owners, said this was the 9th or 10th raid by Indian troops, but they had never been held captive so long.

"What happened in Kunan is the essence of Kashmir today," the doctor, Altaf Hussain, said. "Are we speaking the truth or is India speaking the truth? We ask the world to decide."

Ghulam Mohiuddin, the local magistrate until all civil power was given to the military last year, said he was in his office on March 25 when he received a frantic call from home.

"They said that the forces had come and entered the houses on this lane, where they were beating women," he said in an interview. Rushing home, Mr. Mohiuddin was barred from entering the neighborhood and had to spend the night with in-laws. The next day, he obtained a police order allowing him to cross the military cordon.

"I found my two older sons totally beaten," he said. "My daughter had been slapped while holding on to her year-old baby."

Neighborhood residents, many of whom lived on water for three days until the troops left, said guerrillas had fired on soldiers nearby, prompting the raid by paramilitary troops of the Central Reserve Police Force and the Border Security Force, units with a reputation for brutality and poor discipline. They were said to have broken windows, smashed bathroom mirrors and television screens, and confiscated money and jewelry.

In an interview in a well-guarded hideaway in the same neighborhood, the local guerrilla commander of the Hizbi Islami organization, who calls himself Mushtaq ul-Islam, denied that his group had fired first.

He said his organization, an Islamic fundamentalist group wanting to join Pakistan that is less popular than the secular Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, had been broadcasting messages over loudspeakers asking Hindu soldiers to convert to Islam. Most Indian troops are Hindus.

The guerrilla leader said he had also received a message that the security forces were about to sprinkle gunpowder around the neighborhood and set fire to it, a tactic used widely here with devastating effect. He said his commandos armed to fight them off.
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kilo
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:49 am

The above article was taken from nyt online at the following address

Code:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D6163FF934A35757C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: This Debate is about Proofs of Atrocities   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:52 am

I am not sure what is the "Proof" that Mr Admin is looking for

Lets try to foucs our debate on the Proofs of the Atrocities;

STAY AWAY:
http://www.telegraphindia.com//1080804/jsp/nation/story_9643825.jsp

Mr Admin
I fetched the following from YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE7zOyN01A4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2vsztUdkpU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSIQRF_AHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSIQRF_AHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI0STMGgA4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilfJDY8rA9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGu4QWHQ8bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX5XZb-qvSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgbDESuBXTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdYLzqrRqb0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ4JCGeQqqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpyW2dxyJgc
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ethnic-cleansing-of-hindu-pandits-in-kashmir-part-1/2014365699


After one or two generation you can proudly say that there were no pundits at all in kashmir, where is the proof of it?
I can't contain myself laughing.

Let me know if this is not sufficient
I will try to fetch more Proofs which are available Online.

What I find funny is that You dont trust the words of your own people:
http://www.panunkashmir.org/fundamentalism.html
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PostSubject: for kilo   Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:01 am

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PostSubject: for ...   Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:05 am

one more I got:

http://www.kashmir-information.com/video/index.html

There are lot of links in this page itself...
watch it with open mind and heart.
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: for ....????   Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:14 am

one more

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56362

"
In the preceding months, 300 Hindu men and women, nearly all of them Kashmiri Pandits, had been slaughtered ever since the brutal murder of Pandit Tika Lal Taploo, noted lawyer and BJP national executive member, by the JKLF in Srinagar on September 14, 1989. Soon after that, Justice N K Ganju of the Srinagar high court was shot dead. Pandit Sarwanand Premi, 80-year-old poet, and his son were kidnapped, tortured, their eyes gouged out, and hanged to death. A Kashmiri Pandit nurse working at the Soura Medical College Hospital in Srinagar was gang-raped and then beaten to death. Another woman was abducted, raped and sliced into bits and pieces at a sawmill.
"
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PostSubject: Statistics from KP themselves   Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:19 am

Here is the detailed report which also underlines 7000 remaining KP in valley as of 2007

http://www.iakf.org/main/index.php?module=article&view=173

" There was a mass exodus of nearly 95% of the Kashmiri Pandit community during the early 1990s. Sixteen years later, there are approximately 7,000 Kashmiri Pandits who permanently reside in Kashmir. These “non-migrants” have remained in Kashmir due to economic constraints, familial circumstances, and/or a deep attachment to the land, to name a few reasons. They face grave problems today, including lack of employment opportunities, government corruption and complacency, and inadequate monetary and moral support from the Kashmiri Pandit Diaspora.
"
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PostSubject: for ...????   Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:35 am

Another Kashmiri: (This is their own words)

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2004/06/more-on-kashmir-debating-kashmiri.html

"
Perhaps you will argue that the Indian govt's record is not reassuring either. That's true--the rights violations of the Govt. are well-known, indeed well-publicized. But they pale in comparison to the record of the secessionists: ethnic cleansing, rape, torture on such a scale that our community felt compelled to flee. The Indian govt. has done nothing remotely comparable. And that, I submit, is the ultimate judgement of the
Muslim community as well. If that had not been the case, then one would see a substantial fraction of Kashmiri Muslims fleeing to refugee camps. Only a very small minority of Muslims fled to Pakistan. Perhaps, Dr. Singh, I'm too pessimistic in my analysis. Perhaps, but you see that's a chance I don't wish to take--it's a judgment shared by many minorites in the Valley.
"
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