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 Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan

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The best solution for Kashmir is:
Complete independence
62%
 62% [ 95 ]
Merge with Pakistan
2%
 2% [ 3 ]
Merge with India
36%
 36% [ 56 ]
Total Votes : 154
 

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Koshur
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PostSubject: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:44 am

What option is in the best interests of Kashmir? Would we be best served staying as an independent country. I think so, but what do you all think. Please vote in the poll and let's see what the majority thinks.
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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:44 am

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PostSubject: Use Brain not Heart   Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:56 am

I am Kashmiri by birth - when I listen to heart it says something and when I apply Brain there is no question in my mind that we are well off with INDIA and we are bound to harvest greatness with INDIA and be part of its sucess.

Pakistan is already divided even all are muslims - Kashmir will also be no more than balooch or frontier people
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PostSubject: Another Thought.   Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:09 am

[Deleted by moderator: multiple posts on different threads. Wikipedia links not allowed]
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PostSubject: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:47 am

Merger with any one single country will leave us in a very tight spot and our basic survival depends on staying as an independent entity.

We will never be a safe place if we are a part of even one of these countries i.e. China/Pakistan or India.

Here is how I want to elucidate my concerns/points:

1) If our people choose to be with any one of the above mentioned countries, there will always be a group or community of people who will feel sidelined or dejected because of their affinity with a particular region whether by race or religion. For example the Kashmir valley and Muslim areas of Jammu division although under Indian occupation for almost 60 years refuse to either integrate or accept Indian sovereignty.

2) Add to that the security threats perceived by these countries against each other, for example if we decide to be a part of India, then what happens to Arunachal Pradesh or Sikkim will have repurcussions on our eastern and north-eastern borders in J&K.

3) Like it or not, we are caught up in the quagmire of uncertainity as superior powers all around us will continue to wrest each others muscle unless we vote to become a neutral ground.

4) Consider a scenario when we are a Part of Pakistan......then Kashmiri Pandits, people of Jammu, Kathua and parts of Udhampur will rise up in arms against us as they would never want to be a part of Pakistan even if the Kashmir valley, Doda, Poonch, Rajouri,Kishtawar,Kargil etc vote in favour of accession to Pakistan.

5) If we consider China (very remote scenario) then Ladakhi people will be disillusioned (As they hate China because of what it has done in Tibet).

6) Being a part of India is acceptable to people from Jammu, Kathua and Udhampur plus Ladakh but totally non negotiable vis a vis Kashmir and Kargil regions as already pointed out.

7) The Pakistan controlled part of Kashmir and Baltistan will never vote for either India or China. Most of the populationin Mirpur, Tralkhud etc is comprised of survivors that escaped the slaughter of Muslims in Jammu in 1947 and therefore will never even consider India for one iota of a second.

Cool Now Ladakh is strategically very Important for India and the people there may want to be with India however to reach Ladakh by road for 6-8 months a year, Kashmir is the only somewhat safelink. The Leh-Manali road stays open for just 3 months of the year and is a strategic disaster as in case of an invasion, China can take control of this road in a few hours. So in a case scenario where India does let go of Kashmir, then this vital connection to Ladakh is gone and controlling the territory will be next to impossible.

9) Status quo is not acceptable as it has not worked for 60 years now

10) the Chinese will be the most difficult customers as it is unlikely that they will vacate Aksai-Chin but there is a huge possibility that India may sell Aksai-Chin to China bartering it for Arunachal Pradesh/Sikkim just like Pakistan ceded the Karakoram tract in return for Nuclear technology favours from China. Its tragic but all these occupiers playing hide n seek with us is going to continue unless we become independent.


[/b]Bottom-line is that by associating ourselves with any-one of these big countries, whether we like it or not, we will become an immediate target for the other major powers around us. Now all these countries are nuclear powers and that means in a worst case scenario, we can become legitimate or illegitimate targets of the opposing force.

So, in my opinion an Independent J&K with active co-operation from all the surrounding powers is the best possible scenario. I cannot give you either the modalities or the mechanism through which this can be achieved but in an extremely hostile environment where countries around us have fought almost 5 wars with each other and mostly about territory concerning us, signing off our allegiance to just one country may prove detrimental to our survival as a people. In other words, a Swiss formula has to be adopted, how we reach there is something that we have to convince these countries about as much as they have to convince each other. I mean for all of them to neutralise enemity against each other by a phenomenally huge margin, it is best that they help us reach a Swiss type formula. For long lasting peace where no one particular power feels either cheated or deceived by the others.....Nothing is more reasonable than an independent Jammu & Kashmir. Favouritism for any one country cannot work, we have to get innovative here and fresh ideas need to be explored.

Our security as a nation depends upon these three countries agreeing with each other on J&K. If even one of them disagrees, then our future like today is uncertain[b]
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PostSubject: Status Quo.   Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:55 am

Status Quo has not worked thats true.

I have one question only:

1. Why there is no calls from freedom From Gilgit Baltistan and Any non-muslims from IHK or POK?


Please dont get hurt, I want to understand, and be concise in your replies.
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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:19 pm

Quote :
1. Why there is no calls from freedom From Gilgit Baltistan and Any non-muslims from IHK or POK?

Although the best authority to answer these questions would be the representatives of the concerned people however in my opinion, these people have neither suffered nor been subjugated mercilessly (unlike J&K Muslims) by their respective rulers and that is the best answer I can think of besides India reneging on its commitment to right to self determination for people of J&K.
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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:27 pm

That is partial truth that they are not mercilesly subjugated.

There is no media coverage in Gilgit and Baltistan, so we dont come to know.

No one in Kashmir raises this question and ask their brothers in Gilgit and Baltistan

No one questions why there is no democracy in these areas.

99 % of people dont even know the leaders from these areas.

Only Kashmir Valley seems to have problem, and no other area in the whole region.

And reason cant be because they are muslim as there are 140 million muslim and Indian goverment is no Hitler.
They are living happily, pracitising their religion.
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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:17 pm

[quote]That is partial truth that they are not mercilesly subjugated.
Quote :


Indian army has killed a 100,000 plus Kashmiris, how many have been killed in POK by Pakistan army.



There is no media coverage in Gilgit and Baltistan, so we dont come to know.
Quote :


Human rights watch, Unesco, OHCHR, Amnesty international (all neutral organisations) all point their fingers at Indian occupied Kashmir and seldom talk about the humaan rights issues in the other Kashmir, however you are free to believe Indian propaganda machine.

No one in Kashmir raises this question and ask their brothers in Gilgit and Baltistan
Quote :


I personally and thousands of other Kashmiris have relatives in the other part of Kashmir. as we speak right now I have my 72 year old grand fathers brother and his wife at our house in Srinagar and they are giving a completely different picture of peace, tranquility in the Pakistan administered Kashmir.

No one questions why there is no democracy in these areas.
Quote :


Of course the indian media n its stupid propaganda must have conveyed this to you. Grow up buddy, try some neutral sources. Pakistan administered Kashmir has a vibrant democracy and an active parliament, Mirpur is called the London of pakistan.

99 % of people dont even know the leaders from these areas.
Quote :


You will once the extreme censorship of media is stopped by the Government of India. India ranks at a lowly 120 in the world with respect to freedom of press especially when it comes to J&K and North-East.



Only Kashmir Valley seems to have problem, and no other area in the whole region.
Quote :


what about North-East of India, what about Naxals in India.....however when it comes to J&K, the first people to rise up against the dogras where people from Poonch n Rajouri n Doda. Anyways Kashmir Valley has a problem because it has learned to stand up for its rights promised to it by the Indian Union at the United Nations.



And reason cant be because they are muslim as there are 140 million muslim and Indian goverment is no Hitler.
They are living happily, pracitising their religion.[quote]

We need no lessons on how happy Indian Muslims are (godhra, Mumbai, babri masjid, Ayodhya, Aligarh, Kanpur etc etc etc etc etc etc ) however, we are Kashmiris and not Indians. This is beyond religion....it is about our political rights.....it is about our right to decide and forge our own destiny.


I don't think you will ever understand our pain and anguish.......however I wanted to discuss the topic and not go back into the same bickering about how good it is to be an Indian.

Believe me, we have discussed all your points umpteen times before on many forums and it leads us nowhere but to endless bickering so either you accept that the J&K is a disputed territory that needs to be solved or stop glorifying India:D
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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:23 pm

To be frank Kashmir Valley people are unhappy .. mostly unreasonably. That I have proven in my last 20 posts.

But its impossible to say them anything, because as history has taught us, its in vain.



Good Luck to you Guys.


This is my last post as I have got to do some good work in my life.


---------------
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PostSubject: Kashmir   Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:12 pm

Quote :
To be frank Kashmir Valley people are unhappy .. mostly unreasonably. That I have proven in my last 20 posts.

But its impossible to say them anything, because as history has taught us, its in vain.


This is the response we get from Indians when we talk about J&K, the self righteousness of the Indians will never cease to amaze me. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: What will happen to us if we decide to integrate with India?????   Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:03 am

A TIMES OF INDIA REPORT THAT DESERVES TO BE DISCUSSED




Quote :





Terrorists breeding most in riot-hit areas
21 Sep 2008, 0044 hrs IST, Subodh Varma & Rema Nagarajan,TNN

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NEW DELHI: One of the questions troubling security experts and government agencies in the context of growing incidents of terror attacks is the origins of the terrorists.

Going by results of investigations, most of these terrorist hail from states like Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Karnataka and Gujarat.

There are reports of cells in these states, which provide logistic support, training grounds and the personnel to carry out the actions. In many cases, the locations of these places are unexpected. How and why are youths from small towns in these states getting influenced by the ideology of violence?

Undoubtedly, there is a complex set of circumstances contributing to the evolution of terrorists. But a disturbing truth emerges if one looks at the recent history of communal relations in various states. Between 2001 and 2007, over 71% of all communal incidents in the country took place in the very same states where these terrorists hail that is Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, MP and UP.

Of the people killed in these communal incidents, an overwhelming 85% were in these states. This exceptionally high proportion is partly due to the Gujarat carnage, which saw nearly 3,000 people, mostly Muslims, killed after the Godhra train-burning incident. But even if one excludes Gujarat, more than two-thirds of all deaths in communal incidents in the rest of the country during this period were in Maharashtra, UP, MP or Karnataka.

Several states, like Assam, West Bengal and Kerala, have a high Muslim population and yet do not display such tensions on anything like the same scale. In fact, Assam and Bengal have a huge problem of illegal migrants from Bangladesh. Yet neither has a recent history of communal violence of the scale witnessed in Gujarat, Maharashtra, etc.

And, neither do these states seem to have thrown up sizeable numbers of Islamist terrorists. In fact, where the intelligence or police have accused Bangladeshi migrants of being involved in terrorist activities, they were allegedly working with people from essentially the same states on which we are focusing here, apart from Andhra Pradesh.

It appears, therefore, that there is some correlation between the areas from where terrorists are arising and the deep sense of siege and fear that follows communal violence. The fact that in most cases of communal riots, the perpetrators have got away scot free even where they have been identified obviously only makes matters worse.

This alienation, when tapped and played upon by fundamentalist forces, may be creating a distorted desire for some kind of revenge. For instance, in Gujarat some of the accused in the Ahmedabad bomb blasts were directly affected by the riots of 2002 where mobs burnt down their houses, schools or college.

In a chronology of major communal incidents in India collated by the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies, the same states show a much higher number of incidents of communal riots in the period between 1989 and 2003. This period coincides with the rise of fundamentalism in the country, led by the VHPs movement relating to Ayodhya, and the watershed year of 1992 when Babri Masjid was demolished by kar sevaks of various Hindu fundamentalist organizations like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal.

So, for those born since the 1980s, especially in these states, communal conflagration and the toxic propaganda that accompanies it must have been a constant background as they grew up. The fact that the Muslim community in the country is generally more afflicted with poverty, unemployment and lack of education would also contribute to youths being more susceptible to calls by fundamentalists for revenge.

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PostSubject: Re: Independence, Merge with India, or Merge with Pakistan   Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:14 am

@all moderators.

I see a lot of blank posts on the forum. Please remember to write the reasons why the posts were deleted.
Remember we have to follow the fourm rules in moderating this forum, and the commenters have a right to know why their posts were deleted.

If this is not by any moderators, and is an issue with the forum, please let me know.

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