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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:23 pm

@peace

Basically since we have provided HRW and UNHCR references to all three points
rapes, loudspeakers, number of people.

We are not doing any false propoganda.

You can take matter with HRW/UN and file a dispute.

We believe that rapes, use of loudspeakers and atleast 3 lakh KP exodus is proven as mentioned in non-prooganda links from HRW and UNHCR.


If you still disagree, You can take matter with HRW/UN and file a dispute.
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peace
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PostSubject: @ABC   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:26 pm

brother u can give me number of links but none can have the authority what the state census has..in all the links that u gave it is almost impossible for me to go through all of them coz one needs to earn bread and butter too..but will surely try to read some...does any of the links that u provided give us the population of the state in 1980..everybody can harp about the eodus of 3,00,000 pandits from the valley..but when u had just 1,24,078 pandits in kashmir how can exodus be 3,00,000..does it mean the state census is wrong...??i am not concerned with what ministry of home or external affairs say because we all have seen how governments all over the world do manipulate..i can accuse the ministry with the same..but can u accuse the state census when it was taken before 1981???
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:29 pm

@peace

You can file dispute with UN or HRW or State .....

Go Ahead.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:38 pm

@ peace

Regarding Numbers: I believe that UNHCR figures mention what has actually happened on the field, and its not 1981 exodus but 1990 exodus, so census number are anyway not valid.

Moreover. there is no reason why not to go by UNHCR figure.

If you still are not content with reference to outdated report from 1981,
You can go ahead and file the dispute with state or UNHCR..

-------------
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:40 pm

i dnt think i or anyone else will file such a nonsense..it is not a dispute at all..u are misinformed and dnt want to accept the reality even when given the figures by ur same unbiased government...what else can i say for ur misinformed posts..i dnt think one can do much after providing u with figures...even if u fail to agree its ur choice..
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:43 pm

exodus was infact in 1989..does the UNHRC conduct the survey..no..who does it..the state government..who has the official figures..state government..thats all i can say..
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:45 pm

it is really illogical to say that census numbers are not valid..then what is..UNHRC??
...if i may ask from where does UNHRC get these numbers from??
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:46 pm

Quote :
i dnt think i or anyone else will file such a nonsense.
.
Well I will file, If I was not content, Its not a big deal,
If you are really sure then you can challenge the UN Report.


Quote :
it is not a dispute at all..u are misinformed and dnt want to accept the reality
We are accepting the reality as given by all major newpaper around the world, the victim themselves, and HRW and UN.

Quote :
even when given the figures by ur same unbiased government...
I mentioned the report is from 1981 and not 1990 so anyway its outdated. Moreover you can challenge this report as well.

Quote :
what else can i say for ur misinformed posts..i dnt think one can do much after providing u with figures...even if u fail to agree its ur choice..
True, after providing everything in your format as you asked still you saying this. The only thing left is you consciences.
We have provided the links from major national and international newpaper, the victims websites, the victims interview and HRW and UNHCR links.

Its established beyond doubt, if you still not satisfied its your own choice.
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:51 pm

all the international newspapers and websites dnt conduct door to door survey in kashmir..u are playing an ego game here now..they collect information from the ministry of external affairs or from free journalists..dnt they??
..what we all can rely on are the census done by state government...u cnt have by any stretch of imagination an exodus of 3,00,000 pandits when there population was far less..does that mean the census is wrong???
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: @peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:52 pm

census is from 1981 and not 1990

did you answer the above point?
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PostSubject: @peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:54 pm

Regarding the Report its says Kashmir Division.

The number fairly depends on what district got included in this report as it may not have included the districts from jammu

Answer the above as well/
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:55 pm

ABC_to_XYZ wrote:
Regarding the Report its says Kashmir Division.

The number fairly depends on what district got included in this report as it may not have included the districts from jammu all the impacted areas.

Answer the above as well/
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:59 pm

the last census book that came out was in 2002-03..it is a digest of statistics and does not deal with just human population..it is issued by the state government...now let u understand this...according to the census the population of pandits in kashmir division in 1981 was 1,24,078..is it possible for 3,00,000 pandits to migrate in 1989..can the population double in just 8 years...???
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PostSubject: @ peace.   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:03 pm

@ peace.

You can answer the question for yourself.

The report is outdated and doesn't include all the impacted areas from which exodus happened.
So the numbers are totally unreliable.

We have to go by the number on the ground, which is given by UNHCR reference.

I hope this is not a ego game here, there is valid point above.
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:06 pm

peace wrote:
the last census book that came out was in 2002-03..it is a digest of statistics and does not deal with just human population..it is issued by the state government...now let u understand this...according to the census the population of pandits in kashmir division in 1981 was 1,24,078..is it possible for 3,00,000 pandits to migrate in 1989..can the population double in just 8 years...???

The census is not done overnight
It start a year or two before (1981) that is 1979 and exodus happend in 1990 ....

Try to see the finer details as to number of houses migrants etc, in UN report,
Go through it atleast once. It gives specific number as to where they are displaced and living.

According to the Norwegian Refugee Council, regional conflicts in Jammu and Kashmir, Gujarat, and the northeast displaced at least 650,000 persons. Approximately 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits forced to flee the Kashmir Valley in the early 1990s after the outbreak of separatist violence remained in IDP camps in Jammu and New Delhi. They were unable to return to their homes in Jammu and Kashmir because of safety concerns, including the ongoing killings of Hindus in the state.

According to the Ministry of Home Affairs' Annual Report for 2006-2007, there were 55,950 Kashmiri Pandit migrant families, of which 34,562 resided in Jammu, 19,338 in Delhi, and 2,050 in other states. There were 230 migrant families living in 14 camps in Delhi and 5,778 families in 16 camps in Jammu.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:08 pm

ok let me answer u..u are confused in what i am trying to convey brother..first of all it is not a report at all..it is the survey which the government does which gives u the details of the different sections of the state..there are number of surveys which the government does..at the same time the government does the population census and then collectively comes out with a digest of statistics...the last digest came out in 2002-03...
the population according to the digest(it is a government digest and not private one) of pandits in the whole of kashmir division,dosent matter whether voilence affected or not because it is population census was 1,24,078...the survey has nothing to do with militancy...it is the population of pandits in all the districts of kashmir division coz what u accusation is that 3 lac pandits migrated from kashmir when there were just half of it...got my point brother..!!!
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PostSubject: @peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:08 pm

UNHCR: Its UN Refugee Agency.

I am reposting the link:
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c2253b,46545ce12,47d92c5fc8,0.html
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: @ peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:09 pm

@ peace

you are very quickly jumping to conclusion

This is the report as per my earlier link.

The Council can not write random number as to 15 lakkhs or 20 lakhs

I told you, if you still feel discontent you can take the matter with UN and Nigerian Council.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:10 pm

peace wrote:
the last census book that came out was in 2002-03..it is a digest of statistics and does not deal with just human population..it is issued by the state government...now let u understand this...according to the census the population of pandits in kashmir division in 1981 was 1,24,078..is it possible for 3,00,000 pandits to migrate in 1989..can the population double in just 8 years...???

There are some more details here: http://www.jkndf.org/html/eviction.html. Apparently the figures are disputed. But let's switch from Human Rights figures to census figures and I really hope that we don't keep on making such switches as and when it suits your point of view. But lets take census figures for now. So the population of Kashmiri Pandits in kashmir valley in 1981 is 124,000. Assuming 2% growth until 1989 will put the figure about 145,000 in 1989. The 1991 census shows that only 3000 Pandits are left in the valley.

So my question to you is: Why are you even arguing numbers? Its still greater than 100,000? What difference does it make whether 300K or 150K Pandits migrated, its still ethnic cleansing? Isn't it and its still your so called "freedom fighters" who are responsible for ridding the valley of an entire community. If we go by such measurements then what is 5 million population (and do correct me if this is not precise) of Kashmir Valley as compared to 1.3 billion population of India. Why should we even bother about you guys by that standard and the standards that your so called "freedom fighters" have set with respect to your own minority of Kashmiri Pandits.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:14 pm

any council or website or newspaper cannot challenge the state figures...coz state figures are done on ground..
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:16 pm

peace wrote:
any council or website or newspaper cannot challenge the state figures...coz state figures are done on ground..

And what about ethnic cleansing of kashmiri Pandits? Who did that?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:17 pm

peace wrote:
any council or website or newspaper cannot challenge the state figures...coz state figures are done on ground..

@peace

Your still neglecting the fact

that state report is outdated
and the state report is only for kashmir division and not for all impacted areas.


You have made your point and I have made mine.
I will still go by UNHCR numbers as published. Because its number on the ground, it has specific number as to number of migrants in specific areas.
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PostSubject: @hated-in   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:32 pm

@hated-in
The following link is excellent as posted by you

http://www.jkndf.org/html/eviction.html

It covers a wider perspective.
I appreciate your posting of this link.
Thanks.
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peace
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PostSubject: @ABC   Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:47 pm

Quote :
To start with
2:178
2:191-2

and if you have more question PM me
no need to PM brother coz u wrote something sensitive..i will just answer ur post once coz i feel to write what truth is and then just close the topic..
this what verse number 178 of chapter 2 means...it deals about law of equality
[quote].in order to meet the strict claims of justice,equality is prescribed with a strong recomendation for mercy and forgiveness..it further says the killing of the slave of a tribe(arab tradition) should not involve a blood feud where many free men would be killed,but the law of mercy where it can be obtained by consent with reasonable compensation ,would be better....among free men or women all are equal:you cannot ask that because a wealthy or high-born man is killed,his life is equal to 2 or 3 lives among the poor or the lowly.if one life is lost do not waste many lives in retaliation:at most let the law take one life under strictly prescribed conditions and shut the door to private vengeance or tribal retaliation.but if the agreeved party consents,forgiveness and brotherly love is better, and the door of mercy is kept open.[quote]
it clearly stresses upon mutual consent between the two parties in confrontation with due compensation and incase there is a bloodshed one has to avoid killings of free men and women..

i will cut short this discussion but i hope i have been able to clear any doubt regarding the verse..there is nowhere in quran written that u catch hold of a non-muslim and kill him wherever u find him except in the battlefield where u are fighting the opponent..kindly dnt use controversial sites to understand the relegions...
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PostSubject: @peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:23 pm

Quote :
"Jammu, Sept 18: Panun Kashmir Convener, Dr Agnishekhar Thursday said that the Kashmiri Pandit community had entered a crucial phase of battle to ........................................................... regularized by the cabinet, be reserved for the Kashmiri Pandit youth who are facing massive unemployment”

This is what Panun Kashmir aspires for, same as some groups that aspire for 'Azadi'. I would assume a common kashmiri would not mind if a state subject holding kashmiri hindu of whatever surname wants to settle down in the Kashmir valley. And I also assume that the common kashmiri would not object to some of them being adjusted against posts which were reserved for them before the turmoil, which were filled up locally?
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