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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:55 am

rprtr wrote:

The rapes against muslim sisters was committed by an entire battallion of regular Indian army regiment called the "rajputana rifles". This indicates that it was a warfare technique and the whole indian army and government faces blames for this. So far more than 3000 cases of rapes have been committed in kashmir. these qualify as mass rapes by the indian army

Mr. rprtr,

This isn't a competition as to who committed more rapes or who carried out "ethnic cleasing" more effectively. This is simply an attempt to set a baseline or responsibility.

Quote :

The few rapes that are blamed on militants are by criminals because they did not methodically cordon off a village and systematically separate the women. The few rapes were the handiwork of criminals.

The HRW reports that have been posted here cover both sides and in neither case they point that only a "few" rapes were committed.

Quote :

Therefore like I said you guys want to live with the propaganda, that is your choice, but any one can separate the propaganda and hate from reasonable arguments on this forum.

There is no propaganda here. I hope you have read LiberalM's report above regarding sources that have been presented above. All these facts are being pointed out to you based on HRW and NewYorkTimes reports as you requested.


Quote :

You guys have lost the arguments.

It is not about winning or loosing arguments. Its about accepting responsibility that criminal acts and ethnic cleansing were carried out by people who support your freedom moevement in 1989-91 timeframe and beyond. No one is going to look down upon you for accepting this.

Quote :

- You set about claiming that muslims used the mosque speakers to order the pandits out and now claim that ..."oh yeah, by the way they didnt exactly speicify that pandits shouls leave, they were just calling for people to fight the indians, of which we didnt approve, so we left"

This is not what HRW reports point out. HRW reports point out that there was an organized attempt to get rid of Pandits from the valley of which calls for Jihad from mosques were a part of creating fear and terror.

Quote :

-you guys set out blaming muslims for mass rapes and now dont even know how many were raped but want to give the impression that there were mass rapes even though they were committed by criminals.

For the fifth time, we are not blaming Muslims of Kashmir Valley, we are blaming militants such as JKLF who find support among general population of Kashmiri Muslims.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:56 am

@everyone

I think we are reaching somewhere with this thread and there have been no obscene comments.

I also feel that whatever had to be discussed has been brought forward, but I will still keep the thread open for another week until next sunday.

This will give an opportunity to keep the topic focussed and not let it wander off to discuss another topic.

Again, please make your arguments for another week. Keep the discussion focussed on the topic about which this was created.

After next sunday, this thread will be locked to serve as a reference for later. No posts/links/comments will be deleted from here.

If you want to talk about another topic, feel free to start another thread.
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PostSubject: Re: All deleted posts here for two weeks   Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:04 am

@rptr,

We have already accepted the moral responsibility of the atrocities committed by Indian forces. So there is no point going over the old record.

What I am yet to see, is acceptance of moral responsibility by Kashmiri Muslims, for the atrocities committed by the militants that they supported. If you accept that moral responsibility then great - we can move forward and discuss other issues.

If you do not accept your moral responsibility and insist on saying that the Indians have lost the argument, then only thing we can say in that case is that you have not only lost the argument but lost your conscience as well.
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PostSubject: @rptr   Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:04 am

@rptr

Code:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D6163FF934A35757C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all



Is just an allegation from Mr Yasin and not a proven crime.
"According to a report filed by S. M. Yasin"
It got reported in NYTime as the report was filed,
But the case is not proven so your allegation that security personal did this dosent hold true until the case filed by Mr Yasin is proven


I think you have truly lost the ground for this article since its only a report filed and a proven case.
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PostSubject: @rptr   Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:06 am

I made a type in the previous post what I meant to say was

That the report was an allegation filed by Mr Yasin and Case is to be proven in court of Law.
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PostSubject: Pandits were forced away and they are still BANNED to return to Valley.   Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:54 am

Not just that the Pandits were driven away forcibly by Millitants they are categorically asked NOT to return to the valley.

Following is an excerpt from such interview from Hizbul Top Command Salahuddin

STAY AWAY: (As latest as Aug 2008)
http://www.telegraphindia.com//1080804/jsp/nation/story_9643825.jsp

“I will advise Kashmiri Pandits not to take a foolish step to return to the Valley. And those leaders who have sympathy with the Pandits’ return, leave Kashmir and stay with them in Jammu,” Dar said.


And this is not a propoganda sites, Its an interview with Hizbul Mujahideen

Another Proof that Millitants from Known group killed Pandits and they were not "criminals" is interview from a millitant as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mFDCjPzFOc

Another article:
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=316682


"Our hope to return to Kashmir valley in September-October this year has died as five pro-Pak miltiant outfits have banned our return process to valley completely," Battal-Ballian migrant camp dweller Roshan Lal Raina told PTI.


I am sticking to the topic and the above two interviews proves that Millitants used all Terror Techinques to force pundits out of the valley and still keep them banned from returning.

And as pointed by rptr that they were criminal is completely false based on the above interview by the top millitant leaders.



So it was not just a forced exodus but a ban from return.
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PostSubject: Millitants aka Freedom Fighters   Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:58 am

@All

Its proven from the above links that millitants did it, and they had clear plans to do it,
They still stand by that Pandits should keep away from the valley.
As much as 5 millitant group have publicly announced for Pandits to keep away

When they can annouce for pandits to keep away in interview then what is a loudspeaker?????????

Any allegation that somebody other than millitant did it and it was not well thought and they didnt used what ever means available to them doesn't hold any group.

They accept it and want Pundits not to return to the valley.

Thanks.
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PostSubject: HRW references that Millitants Ban on return and Targeted Killings of Pandits   Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:24 pm

Here is the HRW reference for the Targeted Killings of Pandits
And Ban from Return to the Valley

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/7.htm

In July 2005, five Hindu men were separated from their Muslim neighbors by alleged militants, and their throats slit.488 In 2003, after militants killed twenty-four Hindu pandits in Nadimarg near Srinagar, including eleven women and two children, many pandits fled to Hindu-majority Jammu.489 They joined the nearly sixty thousand Hindu families who have been internally displaced from Muslim majority areas by the threats and attacks of militant groups.490 Recent attempts by moderate separatist leaders to bring them back home have been opposed by militants, who issued a statement in July 2005 saying: “We impose a ban on the return of Kashmiri pandit migrants to the Valley.491
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PostSubject: @rptr   Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:33 pm

rprtr wrote:
Quote :
You specifically asked for reports from HRW and Indian newspapers (which do not have archieves on the web dating back to 1991)

That must be so convenient for you to not be able to provide a "SINGLE" newspaper report.

No one is denying that pandits were targets just as many pro-india muslims were targets of some militant organisations. This is evident from the links and excerpts that you have provided above from HRW. Yet, more muslims were targets than all the pandit deaths put together till date.

Even then, in the HRW links that you provided, nowhere mentions the following: that "pandits specifically" were the target of mass rapes, and that muslims used mosque loudspeakers to order the pandits to leave kashmir. (except for the "opnion" of some author named "Rebecca Knuth" that I dont even care to read because it is her personal biased opinion)

This was the basis for which this thread started, so stop diverting the topic.

Lets give it one more try:

News reports or articles from "Reputed news organisation" not opinion articles...

-militants used mosques to order the pandits out
-militatns horded all pandits out of there homes, separated the females and committed rapes. this would justify accusing "all" militants as rapists and barbarians. Although every single rape is heinous and justifies severe punishment to the perpetrators, a few criminal activities by bad apples among the militants does not justify labelling them all as rapists - unless you can prove that militants methodically swarmed a village, separated the males and committed this act as a way to terrorize the pandits. This you cannot prove, because this never happened. Althoug kilo earlier on in this thread has posted a new york times report from 1991 which shows the Indian army doing exactly the same on muslims. why is it that we can provide news reports and you keep posting propaganda sites?

It is surprising how Kilo could come up with an article from 1991 mentioning the mass rapes committed by Indian army and yet you argue that not a single paper in the whole world covered the "mass rapes" and "ethnic cleansing" of pandits by "barbaric kashmiri muslim militants"! yet they had the time and resources to cover the brutalities by Indian army on muslims of Kashmir! I know why, maybe its because those never happened.
http://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-15.htm#862

Most of the content are opinion based and speculative in nature which Kilo has posted, nytimes has not verified on this content.

Here is the references for the Specific Atrocities committed by Freedom Fighters (Millitants) Kashmir.


Here is the HRW reference for the Targeted Killings of Pandits
And Ban from Return to the Valley

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/7.htm

Five Hindu men were separated from their Muslim neighbors by alleged militants, and their throats slit.488 In 2003, after militants killed twenty-four Hindu pandits in Nadimarg near Srinagar, including eleven women and two children, many pandits fled to Hindu-majority Jammu.489 They joined the nearly sixty thousand Hindu families who have been internally displaced from Muslim majority areas by the threats and attacks of militant groups.490 Recent attempts by moderate separatist leaders to bring them back home have been opposed by militants, who issued a statement in July 2005 saying: “We impose a ban on the return of Kashmiri pandit migrants to the Valley.”491


The above is authentic as it has been recorded in police records as well as Authentic HRW website.
Hope that answers the question regarding the "Targeted Anti - Hindu Approach" of Millitants, and also the Barberic nature of their approach.

Following is the reference Regarding the usage of Mosque to raise the "FERVOR for JEHAD", and the raise of fervor is targeted as the above link suggest:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/5.htm

Author and editor of the Asian Age newspaper, M.J. Akbar, summed up the feelings of many:
January 19 became the catalyst which propelled into a mass upsurge. Young men from hundreds of homes crossed over into Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir to receive arms and training in insurrection… Pakistan came out in open support of secession, and for the first time, did not need to involve its regular troops in the confrontation. In Srinagar, each mosque became a citadel of fervor.147


I hope this settles your look out for proven references in regards to Targeted Baraberic Massacres and Use of Mosques for the same.

These are proven websites and proven references while what kilo's article is opinion based, speculative, allegations and not proven.
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PostSubject: let us talk about muslim refugees too...   Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:05 am

a lot has been said about the exodus of kashmiri pandits by kashmiri millitants..let me highlight the exodus of kashmiri muslims by the indian army...
Quote :
in war few things are more certain than the flight of the fearful.the conflict in the kashmir valley may not yet qualify as a war, but the cross fire between indian security forces and kashmiri millitants seeking to shake off indian rule has steadily intensified since the begining of the year, claiming atleast 328 lives.for many kashmiris,the current level of voilence is worrisome enough.some are fleeing for safety,others in search of the means to fight back.whatever the motivation,an exodus is underway.
kashmiri muslims are also fleeing the valley.there destination is azad kashmir,a slice of kashmir under pakistan's control.so far, an estimated 5,000 kashmiris have pushed through deep snow,steep mountain terrain and indian army patrols to make there escape.of these,atleast 500 are villagers who fled what they describe as a reign of terror by indian security forces.
one of the refugees is anwar shah,65,a farmer from kaitha wali,a hamlet in kupwara district close to the frontier,along wit 139 others from the village,he slipped off to azad kashmir late last month.in athmuqam,a village on the neelum river in azad kashmir,shah and his companions claimed last week that indian troops had defiled there mosque,abducted three girls to an army post,forced local boys to work as porters for no pay,beat anyone who annoyed them and pressed for information on kashmiri millitants.as more and more troops arrived in the area,the villagers decided they had to flee."when someone is going for your throat you must run",said shah...

time magazine,NEW YORK,
april 16,1990

this gives the whole picture now and now we have the both sides of the exodus issue..one thing is very clear now.both the hindus and muslims have suffered and still are suffering..the only issue is that who was/is responsible...kashmiri millitants or the army or the government or all of them...blame game can go and on for ever..
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PostSubject: a letter by kashmiri pandit   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:00 am

excerpts from a letter published in a newspaper in srinagar written by a kashmiri pandit living as a refugee in jammu....
Quote :
the editor,
daily alsafah,
srinagar

dear editor,
kindly allow me to draw the kind attention of kashmiri muslim brothers,through the columns of your esteemed daily,towards the miseries,hardships and the exploitation of there kashmiri pandit brothers................i feel ashamed to admit that my community has stabbed the kashmiri muslims in the back.this all happened at the insistence of former governer,jagmohan.some self-styled pandit leaders and hindu-fundamentalist organizations exploited the situation and the kashmiri pandits became refugees in there homeland...............in the first week of february 1990, a word was sent to the members of the pandit community in kashmir and they were asked to migrate to safer places.this mesage was from the former governer,jagmohan.pandits were told that the government had plans of killing about 1 lac to 1.5 lac kashmiri muslims particularly, the youth in order to overcome the uprising against india....................pandits were assured that once the proposed massacre of the kashmiri muslims was completed and the movement was curbed,they would be sent back to the valley.that is how most of the pandits left.my community now understands that it was merely made a scapegoat and it was a crude way of painting the mass uprising against india as nothing but a communal one....................the locals in jammu treat us as invaders.our women are treated as whores and prostitutes.people from jammu are under the impression that shortage of money is a sufficient reason for our young women to sell there bodies and honour..................................it is clear that the self-styled pandit leaders have completely sold themsleves,heart and soul to the hindu fundamentalists organizations like BJP and shiv sena and are speaking there language.
kindly convey our hand folded respects to all our brothers and sisters.we salute there courage and there valour.
sincerely your's
sd/K.L.Koul...

i am not concluding anything but letting the readers come to a conclusion themselves...there are more letters of same nature..this stuff will not be available on any (propaganda) sites..
i had earlier wrote that the problem is too complex and cannot be understood by reading some sites...politics is too complex for a common man to understand...
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PostSubject: Re: let us talk about muslim refugees too...   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:19 am

@peace
Quote :
peace wrote:
this gives the whole picture now and now we have the both sides of the exodus issue..one thing is very clear now.both the hindus and muslims have suffered and still are suffering..the only issue is that who was/is responsible...kashmiri millitants or the army or the government or all of them...blame game can go and on for ever..

No one is playing a blame game. Everyone understands that Kashmiri Muslims have suffered too.

The only way to move forward for both sides is
(1) to accept that each side has committed atrocities, then
(2) to sincerely accept some responsibility for those atrocities committed by their forces/militants,
(3) address the issues that caused those atrocities,
(4) resolve to never let those forces/militants to commit those atrocities again, and
(5) make sure that there are institutional/societal reforms to back and monitor those resolutions

Most of us Indians here have (on our own) accepted (1) and (2) above and are willing to move forward beyond that. What we would like (in the spirit of gen-next), is for the wider Kashmiri Muslim community to do the same. You asked for extensive proofs from sites that you said you trusted. Those have been given to you. It is purely you and your conscience at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:33 am

Quote :
this gives the whole picture now and now we have the both sides of the exodus issue..one thing is very clear now.both the hindus and muslims have suffered and still are suffering..the only issue is that who was/is responsible...kashmiri millitants or the army or the government or all of them...blame game can go and on for ever..

In the context of human suffering on both sides, (and purely just that), I would blame all, and here is why:

Indian Government:
Because they did not pave the way for a transparent governance to take roots in J&K, and somehow failed to build faith and trust within the common masses.
Kashmiri politicians:
For failing to provide a sincere and progressive leadership.
Separatists:
For leading the common kashmiri away from the path of visible prosperity to the bloody path of despair, and mayhem.
The militants:
For picking up the gun and invoking the wrath of law and order machinery and forces and giving them a resason to anchor in and spread out in great numbers and on a long term basis in the state for carrying out anti militanct operations.......and collateral human right abuses.
Security Forces
For excesses
Pakistan
Why blame Pakistan!
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:37 am

i am glad that atleat we all agree on something..i agree with anon..can we move a tep ahead now from here and suggest a way forward..isnt that what needs to be discussed too??
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PostSubject: @Anon   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:44 am

Anon wrote:
Quote :
this gives the whole picture now and now we have the both sides of the exodus issue..one thing is very clear now.both the hindus and muslims have suffered and still are suffering..the only issue is that who was/is responsible...kashmiri millitants or the army or the government or all of them...blame game can go and on for ever..

In the context of human suffering on both sides, (and purely just that), I would blame all, and here is why:

Indian Government:
Because they did not pave the way for a transparent governance to take roots in J&K, and somehow failed to build faith and trust within the common masses.
Kashmiri politicians:
For failing to provide a sincere and progressive leadership.
Separatists:
For leading the common kashmiri away from the path of visible prosperity to the bloody path of despair, and mayhem.
The militants:
For picking up the gun and invoking the wrath of law and order machinery and forces and giving them a resason to anchor in and spread out in great numbers and on a long term basis in the state for carrying out anti militanct operations.......and collateral human right abuses.
Security Forces
For excesses
Pakistan
Why blame Pakistan!

For Pakistan:
We need a separate thread. It will be quite a bit involving to detail into Pakistan's Involvement and Interests.
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PostSubject: @Anon   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:54 am

ABC_to_XYZ wrote:
Anon wrote:
Quote :
this gives the whole picture now and now we have the both sides of the exodus issue..one thing is very clear now.both the hindus and muslims have suffered and still are suffering..the only issue is that who was/is responsible...kashmiri millitants or the army or the government or all of them...blame game can go and on for ever..

In the context of human suffering on both sides, (and purely just that), I would blame all, and here is why:

Indian Government:
Because they did not pave the way for a transparent governance to take roots in J&K, and somehow failed to build faith and trust within the common masses.
Kashmiri politicians:
For failing to provide a sincere and progressive leadership.
Separatists:
For leading the common kashmiri away from the path of visible prosperity to the bloody path of despair, and mayhem.
The militants:
For picking up the gun and invoking the wrath of law and order machinery and forces and giving them a resason to anchor in and spread out in great numbers and on a long term basis in the state for carrying out anti militanct operations.......and collateral human right abuses.
Security Forces
For excesses
Pakistan
Why blame Pakistan!

For Pakistan:
We need a separate thread. It will be quite a bit involving to detail into Pakistan's Involvement and Interests.


In short I will say Pakistan is blamed for creating the divide and promoting divisive forces, in name of religious brotherhood.

Hundreds of time Pakistan has itereated that Millitants are Freedom Fighter and Pakistan provide moral and diplomatic support to it. Thats what they admit in public.

And what they dont admit in public is they provide the arm and men support as well and their millitary and intelligence support too. That clear and upfront, else their would be no arms and ammunation source in landlocked Kashmir.

In short Pakistan is to be blamed for:
1. Moral, Diplomatic support to the divisive and miscreants.
2. Suppling arms and ammuniation to Millitants.
3. Creating a divide based on Religion. (mostly jammu is blamed for communal forces, but they tend to ignore the big brother Pakistan for communal divide)
4. Intelligence, Millitary support, Waging 3 wars.

Esentailly Kashmir is no business of Pakistan, the true resolution to all issues is people of Kashmir and India.
But thats only possible when either Pakistan gives up on Kashmir's demand or Kashmiri denouces pakistan totally.
Either of which I dont think will happen.
POK, AJK is in tandem with Islamabad, which is in tandem with APHC, and Pakistan has given Karkoram Tract to China Unilaterally without even asking Kashmiris or India, as if Karakoram Tract of Kashmir is Pakistan's Terrotory

The list is too big to contain in one post.
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PostSubject: @Anon   Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:29 am

Dear,

I know is off the topic of this post but I will quote one the statement by KPS Gill (Remember the Officer who contained the insurgency in Punjab)

He said that "epicenter" of all Terrorist Activity is Pakistan, and to be specific ISI.

Actually Pakistan is the root cause since 1947, and Jinnah.

But our Muslim Brother will mistake me to be anti-muslim, when I mean to be anti pakistani,
I am not anti-muslim, and muslims of kashmir should not to be blamed.

The true root cause is "Pakistan", the master of division .....

I have one video from Maulna Abdul Kalam Azad, just listen to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRt5G65OAUg

This is what the True Great Leader said,
But its sad that he found little audiences.

Its quite a study to read through the "details of Partition of India"

But as i said its even out this forum and not jsut this particular thread to detail on "Phenomenon called Pakistan"
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PostSubject: An excellent letter by a true Kashmiri citizen.   Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:30 am

Wow, One great act by Admin and we see so much of activity here and that really was the purpose of this forum.

Who ever wanted to say whatever has been doing that and its really wonderful if it continues.
I hope there are no more deletions and new censor boards which kill the purpose of this forum.

Lets get out of this blame game. No matter how hard anyone tries, truth can't be suppressed. No matter how you label them, HRW sites, propaganda site etc etc.
We are getting involved in a childish blame game.
I dont have to go far, we have posters who have experienced the barbaric days and nights from 19-01-1990. No one can deny what horrors they went through. So lets stop it. At the same time I dont deny what current local kashmiris are going through which is nothing but a creation of their own.

It took me a while before I contributed here again and the topic which I had been thinking about was beautifully written about, by some intelligent young Kashmiri citizen in Greater Kashmir (its in today's paper dated 7 Oct,2008). You can check it out.

How i wish every Kashmiri citizen thinks like this young guy. I have marked the lines which starkly stand out in this letter. And the last few lines just sum up what Kashmir and Kashmiris ought to do.

Dear Editor
I was born in the year 1981 in Srinagar. Some of the very first thoughts about Kashmir that crossed my mind as a child were that it’s a beautiful and holy place. Till the year 1989 (when I was 8 ) I was not sure which country do I belong to, the coins in my pocket had ‘India’ embossed on them but every one cheered for Pakistan cricket team, respected Pakistan’s national flag and leaders. In the year 1992 (eleven years after I was born) Pakistan won the World Cup every one around cheered for them. Imran Khan was Kashmir’s national hero.
As a kid I saw the Kashmiri pundits leaving Kashmir in blue trucks and SRTC buses. I saw some people carrying a Kalashnikov in there pheran instead of a Kangir. Something bad was happening and worst was about to happen. People said we will get Azadi this way. No one was willing to define freedom. No one was sure what name will be embossed on our coins in future. Kashmir was lost.
Years passed by, people with Kalashnikov’s no longer carried the weapon in there pherans. They wore a khaki or camouflage uniform now. The soldiers interacted with people of Kashmir. The experiences were good, bad and worst. Many times I saw soldiers beating people on roads and many times I saw them helping people. I remember some soldiers would help old people and school children cross the roads of busy Lal Chowk, when I used to go to my school. My question was still unanswered; what name should be embossed on the coins in my pocket.
Today, I meet a lot of people from various sections of the Kashmiri Society. They do not want the killing of anyone. They want a good life, they want a good future for the coming generation, they want to be safe and they want money. Money is something that people missed all these years. Our businesses are still slow, new industries are hard to start, people are afraid to invest their money in Kashmir.
The dimension of the Kashmir issue that I want to discuss is economical. I know this may sound absurd to a lot of people, but yes the solution of Kashmir problem lies in the economy of Kashmir. The listed options as solution to Kashmir issues are just a few namely, going with Pakistan, India, Azadi, Self-rule and autonomy etc... But, what will be the condition of the people of Kashmir if any of these solutions is implied. Can anyone say for sure that the hatred and killing would stop? I guess no. People of Kashmir do not have a sound economical infrastructure; we cannot expect current industries like, handicraft exports and tourism to flourish in such uncertain conditions. To sum it up short, Kashmir does not have a solution unless it is economically independent.
There is a need that we as people should act more responsibly towards our duties. The youth of Kashmir instead of investing there money, knowledge, time and talent in other places of world should invest their resources in Kashmir. There are a lot of technology based businesses that can be started here. ITES(BPOs ), food processing and other agriculture and technology based industries can increase the flow of money in this region of the world. Without being economically established, morally correct and technically sound we do not deserve to be politically stable. The worst enemy of Kashmir in my opinion is the common Kashmiri himself. That includes me also. Our sense of responsibility does not exist, we as professionals do not want to be accountable for our deeds and actions. At our workplaces the only deciding factor is our personal relation with the people we deal with in different capacities. The only thing that seems to work well in Kashmir is our approach, bribe or social status. This is true for us as a nation.
The need of the hour is for every Kashmiri to see how they can help each other grow. We need to cut down our luxuries for the sake of future of our Kashmir. Our youth have to shoulder responsibilities for the growth of Kashmir’s economy. They need to setup industries especially foreign exchange earning and employment generating industries.
The solution of Kashmir problem does not exist if we do not wake up today, tomorrow may be too late. Please do not let the future suffer for the mistakes that we are committing today.
Moulvi Junaid Hafiz
Karan Nagar, Srinagar

Just brilliant.
-corekashmiri
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:43 am

Quote :

People said we will get Azadi this way. No one was willing to define freedom. No one was sure what name will be embossed on our coins in future. Kashmir was lost.

Well I definitely agree with this. After almost a month on this forum, I am completely lost as to what exactly the abstract concept of "right of self determination" entail in the "real world."

Dadabhai Naoroji (a Parsi gentlemen) started the "conventional" Indian Independence movement when he brought attention to the fact that British were shipping wealth out of the country - a very concrete and real world grievance. Gandhi started out demanding equal representation (votes) for Indians under British Empire - again a very real world grievance. Nelson Mandela in South Africa was leading an independence movement for "racial equality" - again a very real world and concrete grievance. But, I have no idea what "right to self determination" actually means as far as real world freedoms are concerned.

Admin, since this is going off topic may I request moving this post and previous post by corekashmiri to a new discussion thread. The last few posts on Pakistan can probably be moved to a new pakistan specific discussion thread unless off course anyone objects and finds these posts relevant to the topic.
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PostSubject: @Admin,hated-in   Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:56 am

I have no issues with what hated-in is suggesting..
regards
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PostSubject: All deleted posts   Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:08 pm

Its good to see a nice debate going on n people disagreeing with people in a civilized way.

And honestly guys, although this is a forum for kashmir n its problems.......I am really saddenned at what is happening all over India these days.

Keeping J&K out of the loop (for obvious reasons), I wish all Indians sanity n may good long lasting sense prevail all over India so that senseless killings can be stopped.

Coming back to the Kashmir problem.....Its the last bastion of Aryans in India (Please do not label me as a rascist as I am only trying to protect my ancestral roots) and the Aryans are trying to protect whatever is left of their heritage/lineage.

Sadly though, we have lost out on our Aryan pandit brothers............whether u give it the color of religion or the color of lineage..............fact is we are trying to protect who we are as a people.

One more thing, although we kashmiris n u Indians are predominant on this forum....we are forgetting that theres a major chunk in the form of Pakistanis who are absent here......so a dialogue without them being involved is like eating a half baked loaf.


keep up the good work guys n from the core of my heart a Happy Shubh Deepawali to all my Pandit brothers n Indian friends.

[/b]Insha allah one day in an independent J&K (free from the Indian n Pakistani yokes), we will once again share sweets on deepawali with our batta brothers Very Happy [b]
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:44 pm

Hello everyone,

I beleive it will be in the best interest of setting the record straight by stating my cocncluding remarks on this heated topic. These are my beleifs which were reinforced by the heated discussion on this thread:

  • The muslims of Kashmir were not responsible for the exodus of the Pandits.

  • That a small number of unscrpulous members of the Pandit community are spewing false propaganda by claiming that the muslims colluded in large scale raping of our Pandit sisters.

  • That the same propaganda goes on to falsely accuse muslims of using mosque loud-speakers to order the Padits to leave Kashmir.

As this month-long debate on this thread has proven, these allegations are a figment of imagination of hate-mongers. When members asked them to prove these accusations by citing reliable sources, all they provided was links to hate-filled hindutva websites whose sole purpose is to spew baseless propaganda.

I would like to point out some reactions of members to the sources provided:

Quote :
By kilo
1. Kashmiri pandits were not targeted specifically by kashmiri muslims. or there was no mass hatred of Pandits by muslims. some pandits were defintiely targeted by militants just as they targeted muslims. Both are wrong and condemnable but my point is that a majority of kashmiri muslims did not support that pandits left kashmir, and a absolutley not going to take it lightly if they are accused of being accessory to the raping their pandit sisters.

2. the myth that mosque loudspeakerrs were used to order the pandits to leave has been shattered. the hrw site would have mentioend about that jsut as it mentioned that mosque loudspeakers were used to ask people to come out and join the azaadi marches.

Pasted from <http://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-45.htm>
Quote :
By rprtr
You guys have lost the arguments.

- You set about claiming that muslims used the mosque speakers to order the pandits out and now claim that ..."oh yeah, by the way they didnt exactly speicify that pandits shouls leave, they were just calling for people to fight the indians, of which we didnt approve, so we left"

-you guys set out blaming muslims for mass rapes and now dont even know how many were raped but want to give the impression that there were mass rapes even though there were just a few and even those were committed by criminals.

Pasted from <http://kashmir.forumakers.com/all-issues-relating-to-kashmir-f1/all-deleted-posts-here-for-two-weeks-t101-120.htm>
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