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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:40 am

I hope the context in above post is clear,
Jam has unilaterally arrived at conclusion showing some flexibilty
I appreciate such your view.

But still the islamic, the pakistani, the jihadic was not covered and I particularly refute your first observation that all section of society were equally discriminated.

The above post is just a collection of 4 such references from HRW.
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PostSubject: @jam   Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:45 am

This is only for Jam

As I have posted this earlier too. [May be deleted or merged with my earlier post of 4 points.]

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm

In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.

One month later, JKLF militants abducted the daughter of Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, then freed her when the government gave in to demands for the release of five detained militants.

On January 19, 1990, the central government imposed direct rule on the state.

Militant groups stepped up their attacks, murdering and threatening Hindu residents, carrying out kidnappings and assassinations of government officials, civil servants, and suspected informers, and engaging in sabotage and bombings. With the encouragement and assistance of the government, some 100,000 Hindu Kashmiris, known as "Pandits," fled the valley.
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PostSubject: @Admin   Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:53 am

Mr Admin,

I am just quoting below your points and to see if I have tried to addressed the specific points from Non Propoganda sites:

1. Muslims colluded with Millitants
I have clearly stated that HRW use of word Millitant is needed politically correct word and its all Millitants were Muslim and Kashmiri. I am not saying that all Kashmiri Muslim colluded with Millitants, Its unthinkable and I am sure (guts) that thats not the case.

2. Its was muslim vs others
Last 5 reference points to jam from HRW sites indicates that. Although its true that some muslim also got killed.

3. Loudspeakers
HRW has clearly mentioned use of loudspeaker, Again I have detailed above that how loudspeaker use can be interpreted.

4. Mass Rapes:
I have given atleast 6 references from HRW site that millitant and rapes are totally interlinked
I am again not saying that all muslim are like this, i pray not, i wish not and I know all are not like that.

5. Killing Murder Fundamentalistic Religion imposition are all used to Terrorize
all the above points are referred ffrom HRW document.

Let me know if that suffice?
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: @All   Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:13 am

I understand Admin concern and Jams concern:

Here is my conclusion and as I see the problem:
Number of Rapes or Loudspeaker or Number of People killed of either community is not that important, as numbers can vary from varied sources and may not reflect unreported cases.

The primary is an attempt to Target a community by another community and threaten/terrorize it various means, which results in its migration.


Its very clearly mentioned in HRW docs and Propaganda websites that Kashmir Conflict has clearly seen Few Fanatics of One Community causing the other community fled their homeland.

That is a fact beyond any doubt.

I will again say to all member of this forum that number of atrocities (rapes, murders, loudspeaker, AK-47, Sword etc) are immaterial, The fact remains, that Few Fanatics of one community has caused the exodus (fleeing) from homeland of another.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:28 am

ABC_to_XYZ,

I think you have showed it well beyond any reasonable doubt. I am surprised that the 700,000 strong Indian army in Kashmir Valley let this happen right below their noses. I wonder what this 700,000 security force of Kashmir doing at the time?
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PostSubject: Re: All deleted posts here for two weeks   Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:27 pm

All,

While it is clear that militants committed the atrocities and threatened Kashmiri Pandits with dire consequences if they did not leave, and commandeered mosques to propagate their agenda, we have to be fair.

(1) I hope that we all agree that just because all militants were Kashmiri Muslims does not mean that all Kashmiri Muslims were militants (i.e. the inverse is not true).

So we understand that on a physical plane, the wider Kashmiri Muslim community did not commit the atrocities themselves.

(2) It is perhaps also fair to say that the wider Kashmiri Muslim community supported the cause of the militants but not the means they used (i.e. violence and atrocities) to further the cause. So I hope that we all agree on this point as well.

Now the question is when the wider Kashmiri Muslim community supports the cause the militants are fighting for (Azadi), calls the militants 'freedom fighters', calls the dead amongst them 'martyrs', gives them moral support for the cause they are fighting, how much can they then turn around and morally distance themselves from the violent acts of the militants ? So by extending moral support to the cause of the militants, wouldn't the wider Kashmiri community share some moral responsibility for the violents acts that the same militants committed in their cause ?

It is very similar to asking if the Indians share the moral responsibility when their CRPF commits atrocities in any part of India. Yes, as Indians, we share the moral responsibility of the atrocious actions of our forces. Only by accepting that responsibility truthfully, can we move forward in addressing the issues.

Is the wider Kashmiri Muslim community ready to share the moral responsibility of what happened to the Pandit community so we can all move forward in addressing their issues ?
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PostSubject: Concept of Millitants in Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:19 am

I agree with LiberalM on most of the point but there is need to analyze the "millitancy" and the pshyche of millitants before making a call that Muslims in General of Valley supported and/or participated in the crimes.

1) supported : As you mentioned its no doubt that wide support exist even today. By letting them use the facilites, giving shelter, hailing them as martyr, not reporting their sightings, not condeming ever publicly, never telling their hideouts or their plans. Its unthinkable that millitancy can continue for 20 years without local support, Its closely interwined, the only difference is if their is gun in your hand or not.

When was the last time that "A millitant" was reported by "A Civilian Muslim" of the valley?

2) Committed the crime: When its riots and massacre (Mobocracy) any one can do what they want their is no distinction of general mass and specific millitant or its group, But there were no reporting, no mothers came out to tell that my son has done this crime, they have always assisted the cause, and as you have seen even in "peaceful" demonstration, they were openly throwing stones on police, this is called riots, Also they openly hail pakistan's flag, now its common sense that "friend of enemy is enemy"
From their heart they have supported and when got a chance committed every thing to create havoc.
There are many terrorist Interview on you tube including the major heads like yasin and Salahuddin and their followers who are very much Kashmiri Muslims.

I am sure much of the folks on this forum are not aware of number of terrorist (Freedom Figheters) organisation in kashmir:
Below is such list of kashmiri Freedom Fighter or Millitant or Terrorist or groups:

They have all support from general masses, Kashmir Valley Muslim, Every Pakistani, and few Indian Muslims as well (all those who dont want well of India)

Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM)
Harkat-ul-Ansar (HuA, presently known as Harkat-ul Mujahideen)
Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM)
Harkat-ul Mujahideen (HuM, previously known as Harkat-ul-Ansar)
Al Badr
Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen (JUM)
Harkat-ul-Jehad-al-Islami
Al Umar Mujahideen
Dukhtaran-e-Millat (DeM)
Lashkar-e-Omar (LeO)
Lashkar-e-Jabbar (LeJ)
Tehrik-ul-Mujahideen
Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC)
Mutahida Jehad Council (MJC)
Al Barq
Al Jehad
Jammu & Kashir National Liberation Army
Muslim Janbaz Force
Kashmir Jehad Force
Al Jehad Force (combines Muslim Janbaz Force and Kashmir Jehad Force)
Mahaz-e-Azadi
Islami Jamaat-e-Tulba
Jammu & Kashmir Students Liberation Front
Ikhwan-ul-Mujahideen
Islamic Students League
Tehrik-e-Hurriat-e-Kashmir
Al Mustafa Liberation Fighters
Tehrik-e-Jehad-e-Islami
Muslim Mujahideen
Al Mujahid Force
Tehrik-e-Jehad
Islami Inquilabi Mahaz


To add on to more:
Its simple ---- Its crime to be Pro Indian, and If you are non-Muslim, In name of Jihad its all fair and righteous to kill you and all like yours. (Thats in Quran) Thats the bottom line. See from Jihad perspective a muslim killed in a riot is "Martyr" he is not killed, he has also given life in the cause of Jihad and he will get Jannat like the millitant himself. But the pro Indian Infidels, their death is justified and most important.


@All
The above list is not from propaganda site and its a bonafide list of existing (some may be terminated and there may be new as well) group of Kashmiri Millitants aka Freedom Fighter.

From Constitution perspective and law and order perceptive:
Any action against general masses or specific community or Indian Union is punishable.
And Any action which directly and indirectly supports such action is also punishable.

From Humanitarian perspective there it might be valid to say that all Kashmir Muslim are not millitants and ALL were not part of the crime and atrocities against KPs.
But from purely law/order/constiution perspective a wide number will be held guilty.
(And just to mention here, if it was some other country other than India, you would have seen widely different result for such activities/crimes)


To be a bit Sarcastic:
Lakhs of KPs must be damn stupid to leave their homeland and not return their in 20 years and live a life of refugee still waiting and hoping for a day to come when their "Civilans-Fellas" will make a call which they can trust and return to the Valley.

I mean its insult on top of injury to even try to reason and safeguard such in-human acts and try to ask proofs from non-propoganda sites.

And as far as my personal belief is concerned... I doubt that your call (from LiberalM) will find any audiences.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:43 am

LiberalM wrote:

It is very similar to asking if the Indians share the moral responsibility when their CRPF commits atrocities in any part of India. Yes, as Indians, we share the moral responsibility of the atrocious actions of our forces. Only by accepting that responsibility truthfully, can we move forward in addressing the issues.

Is the wider Kashmiri Muslim community ready to share the moral responsibility of what happened to the Pandit community so we can all move forward in addressing their issues ?

LiberalM,

I am willing to give some benefit of doubt to "younger crowd" in Kashmir Valley - say people who are 23-24 or younger right now and are probably most adept at using the internet.

At some point these people probably asked their parents, uncles, aunts etc as to who the people dressed in military gear and carrying guns on streets were and the likely answer was probably that these were oppressive Indians trying to subjugate the "nation" of Kashmir. Then when they asked about militants, the likely answer might have been that these were "freedom fighter". Further, they probably grew up hearing that India was "Hindu" UNLIKE Kashmir Valley and Pakistan was "Muslim" LIKE Kashmir Valley.

I think I can safely say that an average Kashmiri teenager who is throwing rocks at CPRF (as many youtube videos would show) has absolutely no idea at this point what is it exactly they are fighting for. They haven't seen the havoc their so called "freedom fighters" wreaked during 1989-94 period, the homogeneity of the valley has ensured that they haven't seen or met any Kashmiri Pandits or been exposed to any divergent thoughts other than "Indian propoganda" that is shown on TV, the only thing they have been fed (either directly or indirectly) are the UN resolutions and plebiscite.

My point is that they don't even know what they are fighting for. They don't know what "feedom" means to them, and they have never experienced the freedom that an average Indian may have experienced in the rest of the country let along under "Article 370."

So you MAY be asking the wrong set of people to take "moral responsibility" They have no idea what you are talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:10 am

Anon wrote:

what the people are demanding is not just the seperate homeland for the pandits within the kashmir division but along with it settling of around 5 million brahmins who have ancesterol connection with kashmir
This is interesting. Can you refer me to any source of this information that you consider reliable?

Its interesting to note that while the Muslims in Kashmir Valley are fighting for freedom there are other groups that are fighting for freedom from Kashmir Valley Muslims: Kashmiri Pandits and Ladhak Buddhists definitely fall in this category (see Panun Kashmir and Dangerous Liaisons: Hindu Nationalism and Buddhist Radicalism in Ladakh) upto the extent that in the effort to turn Ladhak into a union territory, the Buddhists in Ladhak are even seeing help from RSS and VHP. Neither the Buddhists in Ladhak or the Kashmiri Pandits are seeing an independent country and nor are they voicing their demands through violent means.

The government has refused all demands of "Panun Kashmir" and "Union territory of Ladhak" since that would mean internally dividing J&K based on religion - something that probably won't happen. But the main point here is that popular movements that see to gain freedom from "Kashmir Valley" have already started even though Kashmir Valley itself has not got its hypothetical freedom. This fact by itself speaks volumes about the ideologically and morally bankrupt freedom movement in Kashmir Valley.

It is one thing to get support for other communities for your "rights", but it does take a lot of effort to actually turn other communities away from you.
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PostSubject: @anon   Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:41 am

i do not wish to reply to ur comments meant for me as i think we have already discussed them in great detail but i will surely continue with it if u wish to and if u think that will be fruitfull...as far as my comments regarding the idea of permenant settlement of hindu brahmins is concerned here is a copy of it..it is not in any case a personal opinion but what Panun Kashmir Convener, Dr Agnishekhar has said in a press conferance in jammu..take a look and write to me if it is a logical idea(i will not call it a solution)....
Quote :
Jammu, Sept 18: Panun Kashmir Convener, Dr Agnishekhar Thursday said that the Kashmiri Pandit community had entered a crucial phase of battle to achieve the target of homeland in Kashmir. “We have entered a crucial phase of our battle and the community needs to be prepared and to grid up its loins and coordination with the nationalist forces across the country against the Islamic militancy and separatists forces operating in Kashmir,” he said.
Addressing the media here today he said that Panun Kashmir will hold the third world Kashmiri Pandit conference on January 19 next year. “This conference seeks to give a road map to the community for the attainment of homeland,” he said. “A special feature of the conference shall be the participation of the representatives of over 55 lakh Saraswat Brahmins who trace their ancestry to Kashmir. These Saraswat Brahmins scattered across the country, have their origin in Kashmir and today some of them have the surnames as Kamaths, Pais, Chenoys, Rais, Padhgaokars, Bhatts, Kesarvanis to name a few.”
He said that in view of the success of recent Amarnath agitation and endorsement of Panun Kashmir’s stand for a separate homeland in Kashmir by the BJP, the socio-political spectrum of Jammu has shown near unanimity on the demand for homeland in Kashmir valley. “In this world conference Panun Kashmir envisages that we shall cooperate and support the nationalistic aspirations of the people of Jammu and Laddakh who have suffered discrimination and neglect for the over sixty years at the hands of Kashmir centric politicians,” he said. “Panun Kashmir will provide a platform for the people of Jammu and Laddakh to articulate their views before a national audience”.
He urged the government that “15000 posts of Kashmiri Pandits that have fallen vacant and subsequently filled by the local Muslims candidates and regularized by the cabinet, be reserved for the Kashmiri Pandit youth who are facing massive unemployment.”
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:53 am

Quote :

Hated in Wrote:
I think you have showed it well beyond any reasonable doubt. I am surprised that the 700,000 strong Indian army in Kashmir Valley let this happen right below their noses. I wonder what this 700,000 security force of Kashmir doing at the time?

There are two points here, The scenario before 1989 and second is actual number of security force at time of 1989-1994.
The situation was similar to 1947 when the tribals attacked J&K to take control. (Which means it was not well thought of before)
Similarly 1989 was not well thought of or expected before that. Although 1947 to 1980's was having its own share of issues, but not like 1989.
But its for the security forces only that widespread masscares and complete lawlessnes was avoided, else probably we could be writting about much more bizare situation.

More over to understand the riots of 1989 onwards, One must also have a handle on following factors:
1. Afghaistan war get over in 1989
2. Pakistan and Taliban feels victorious about it and want to deploy same strategy in Kashmir.
3. 1991or so, Soviet Union disintegrates, Hence there is direct impact for India foreign policy
4. 1989 VP Singh coalition govermnet is formed . Mufti is foreign minister.
1990 chandrashekhar govermnet
1991 PV Narsimha rao goverment
In all in stable political situation.
5. 1989 cold war end, america patrolling of Pak is over, Pak is free with new spirit and startegy
6. Salahuddin rebels and calls for jihad around 1989 time frame as well in kashmir alleging rigged election
7. Influx of unused weapons from AFghah war through the channels of LeT and newformed Hizbul in 1989
8. Death of Zia in 1988, leaving the wild dogs unleashed.
9. Death of Rajiv in 1991 leaving a space to be filled in time.
10. 1990 1991 first gulf war (iraq war)
11. 1988 ... 7 years of iran iraq war get over

1987-1992 : It was really hell of time in Indian and world History.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:50 am

hated-in wrote..
Quote :
They haven't seen the havoc their so called "freedom fighters" wreaked during 1989-94 period

Quote :
They don't know what "feedom" means to them, and they have never experienced the freedom that an average Indian may have experienced in the rest of the country let along under "Article 370."

ABC wrote...
Quote :
When its riots and massacre (Mobocracy) any one can do what they want their is no distinction of general mass and specific millitant or its group, But there were no reporting, no mothers came out to tell that my son has done this crime

regarding your list...
Dukhtaran-e-Millat (DeM), Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Mutahida Jehad Council (MJC), Jammu & Kashmir Students Liberation Front...they are not miliitant groups...rest i agree and some i have not even heard the names of..

liberalM wrote...

Quote :
While it is clear that militants committed the atrocities and threatened Kashmiri Pandits with dire consequences if they did not leave, and commandeered mosques to propagate their agenda, we have to be fair.


first of all i would like to say that u people have pictured kashmir from the eyes of NDTV,ajtak,BJP,RSS and all the propaganda sites that u have provided as so called proof..i would ask hated-in what havoc is he talking about regarding millitants..u people have potrayed kahmiris as people comitting rapes and kiilings of there own brothers and sisters..can u imagine such a thing comitted by bhagat singh or subhash chandra bose against there own people..the answer would be no..but here the problem is that u people are not aware of the ground realities but ur source of information is only internet..how many of u were present in the valley since 1989 till a minimum period of 20 years...i am sure a few amongst of u were in early stages but not all along the period to see urselves what was/is the nature and character of the atrocities...i was young enough to remember and uderstand the kind and nature of atrocities if hated-in doubts the age group here...the writings resemble a classic bollywood movie for me or a perfect AJTAK news report where they use animation and music to make the news more dramatic..the problem still is that many people cannot picture the problem and situation correctly as they are perfect victims of the same biased and unreliable websites or biased news from national news channels..the problem is too complex to understand for a person sitting in his room somewhere in india and acessing website to know about the problem..as a matter of fact i am delighted that people take time out to investigate the issue and the problem even in there cozy roms but the problem is what is the kind of material that u get on internet.
"it was somewhere 6 or 7 years back when a person in civilian dress was caught by the people throwing a grenade on a tourist bus in gulmarg.people caught the person and he turned out to be a kashmiri.but the shocking revelation was that he turned out to be a paid gunman of the army.he was a paid agent of the government.many a times the state of himachal pradesh has also been accused of these kinds of incidences on tourists in kashmir.the reason that when the tourist influx increased in kashmir it drastically got decreased in himachal."
the problem is too complex brothers..we have kashmiri people here who are paid by the government and who work for the army.they have the liberty to do anything because the blame will never come on the army and these people are never on record..so who is the culprit in this case???
dear hated-in i surely know freedom means for me..it means at the present survival for me from all the forces who are bent upon to eradicate the existence of kashmiris..
there is a very wrong perception amongst people ion india regarding the freedom that kashmir enjoys with regard to article 370..i am sure people just write it without knowing what it is..yes article 370 was a freedom when it came into existence..since 1947 more than 500 amendments have been made regarding the constitution of kashmir which includes the famous article..it was to have only communication,defence,external affairs in the hands of new delhi and the rest with the state government..kashmir would have its own prime minister and the president..now president has the authority to dissolve the assembly and enforce emmergency or president's rule..same ruled applied in kashmir too..after 1953 when the prime minister was reduced to chief minister and the president to governer,the law regarding dissolving the assembly remained intact..so at present in india it is the president who has to dissolve the assembly but in kashmir it is the governer who can dissolve the assembly at his will whenever he thinks it is needed..i cannot go and on regarding article 370 because that is not the topic here but my point is what is the freedom hated-in or others talking about with refrence to article 370..i would like to know..???

the first quote that i mentioned by ABC..what is riot..??..it means disorder or diturbance of peace(i in no way mean to say that u do not know the meaning by writing its meaning)..for riots u can blame people for taking out processions which disturbed peace,u can blame the army and the millitants in engaging voilent activities which diturbed peace..what do u want the mothers to report as i earlier said u pictured kashmiris as people killings and comitting rapes against there own people..the mothers definitely reported about there sons fighting against injustice and in the process they surley wailed over there deaths..
regarding liberalM's comments that it is clear regarding the using of loudspeakers against the pandits,well brother it must be clear for u but not for me..i still believe that mosques were not used against the pandits but yes they were used for chanting slogans against the government..
kindly do not picture kashmir as a scene from a bollywood action thriller...if millitants killed common kashmiris they broke the international humaniterian law and did not comit human rights abuse and if the army killed or raped people then they surely comitted human rights abuse...
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PostSubject: @ABC   Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:59 am

Quote :
and If you are non-Muslim, In name of Jihad its all fair and righteous to kill you and all like yours. (Thats in Quran) Thats the bottom line
u kindly refer the verse of the quran mentioning that or otherwise refrain urself from writing such comments as nobody wants a relegious discussion here as it is surely a sensitive one..if u fail to mention any verse from the quran mentioning what u wrote then i would ask u to apologize for ur false statement..
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:24 pm

peace wrote:
Quote :
and If you are non-Muslim, In name of Jihad its all fair and righteous to kill you and all like yours. (Thats in Quran) Thats the bottom line
u kindly refer the verse of the quran mentioning that or otherwise refrain urself from writing such comments as nobody wants a relegious discussion here as it is surely a sensitive one..if u fail to mention any verse from the quran mentioning what u wrote then i would ask u to apologize for ur false statement..

To start with
2:178
2:191-2

and if you have more question PM me
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:44 pm

peace wrote:

regarding your list...
Dukhtaran-e-Millat (DeM), Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Mutahida Jehad Council (MJC), Jammu & Kashmir Students Liberation Front...they are not miliitant groups...rest i agree and some i have not even heard the names of..

Mr peace, back in the days (1989 to 1994), JKLF was the primary militant group in Kashmir Valley. As I said earlier, Yasin Malik has cooled down since then, but he has directly killed people, his JKLF group has directly killed people, and they bear primary responsibility for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley (ethnic cleansing). So you may call them a political group, I will continue to call JKLF a terrorist group.

Quote :

first of all i would like to say that u people have pictured kashmir from the eyes of NDTV,ajtak,BJP,RSS and all the propaganda sites that u have provided as so called proof

I believe one of your Kashmiri brothers specifically asked from reports from Human Rights Watch. Are you now saying that HRW is propaganda site? Besides that I provided quotes from people who were on the ground and from foreign (neutral) academic authors who have researched the issue. How is this propaganda?

Quote :

..i would ask hated-in what havoc is he talking about regarding millitants..

Exodus of 300,000 to 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits and large scale killing of innocent people. Unless you are still claiming that this did not happen, by international standards this means nothing less than large scale ethnic cleansing which comes a small notch below ethnic genocide as far as general category of "crimes against humanity" are concerned.

The 700,000 or so troops that you see in Kashmir now are a result of this. The entire Rastriya Rifles was raised to fight insurgency in Kashmir.

Quote :

u people have potrayed kahmiris as people comitting rapes and kiilings of there own brothers and sisters..

No one is blaming "kashmiries as people" for committing such crimes. Please read the last few comments carefully again. This has specifically been mentioned at least three (and now forth) time. What we are saying is that Kashmiri militants commited this crimes and unfortunately these militants are supported directly or indirectly by Kashmiri muslim community just like We Indians directly or indirectly support CPRF (and hence are morally responsible for any human-rights violations that are committed by CPRF). Do you agree?

Quote :

can u imagine such a thing comitted by bhagat singh or subhash chandra bose against there own people..

There are no documented or undocumented or even rumors in either Indian or British circles that would even hint towards Bhagat Singh or Bose killing innocent civilians based on their religion the middle of the night while these civilians were sleeping. And there is certainly no record or rumour (even in British circles) that would even hint at either Bhagat Singh or Bose carrying out ethnic cleansing like your Kashmiri militants have done.

Quote :

there is a very wrong perception amongst people ion india regarding the freedom that kashmir enjoys with regard to article 370..i am sure people just write it without knowing what it is..yes article 370 was a freedom when it came into existence..since 1947 more than 500 amendments have been made regarding the constitution of kashmir

Yes we know, but the point is that Kashmir Valley has never given peace or political process a chance. If Hong Kong under China can send an independent team to Olympics, I don't know why J&K should not be able to do more than that under article 370.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:47 pm

ABC_to_XYZ wrote:
peace wrote:
Quote :
and If you are non-Muslim, In name of Jihad its all fair and righteous to kill you and all like yours. (Thats in Quran) Thats the bottom line
u kindly refer the verse of the quran mentioning that or otherwise refrain urself from writing such comments as nobody wants a relegious discussion here as it is surely a sensitive one..if u fail to mention any verse from the quran mentioning what u wrote then i would ask u to apologize for ur false statement..

To start with
2:178
2:191-2

and if you have more question PM me

All, I would humbly suggest that we avoid discussion along these lines. Let's just call this a draw and end it here
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:53 pm

@hated in

I agree,
Moderator May erase the post or the specific words if he will.

Thanks
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PostSubject: @ALL   Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:33 pm

I don't think we have any right or qualification to discuss religion here, and anyways that was not the topic of this thread. Please let us all discuss issues pragmatically and with tolerance.

thank you all
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PostSubject: JKLF   Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:38 pm

Regarding JKLF

Here is the interview of Yasin Malik which can clarify few doubts;
(Its in 5 parts, I am posting the first part link, rest you tube will suggest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9CvVV2HXA


Also Hizbul's Salahuddin's Interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hv5WuBZPGU&feature=related
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PostSubject: Gilani?   Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:40 pm

Sorry about again posting a propaganda link below

But does it imply a link between Gilani and Hizbul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU9CKDkXyQY

Forum may decide.
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peace
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PostSubject: @ hated-in   Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:54 pm

what i meant was that nobody proved from HRW regarding mass rapes of pandit women or kashmiri muslims using mosque loudspeakers to threaten pandits..it just exageration of the whole events..
...however i would DEMAND an explaination from hated-in for propagating false information on the forum.he wrote about the exodus of 3,00,00 to 4,00,00 pandits from the kashmir division...let me write some statistics for u and others too who have been reading and sending too many pro-indian links...
[quote]
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PostSubject: Regarding the numbers   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:00 pm

@peace

Below is from unhcr website, mention 3,00,000
This is just estimate, the actual number is far larger.
Let us know if it satisfy your demand.


Regarding the number of KP exodus:

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c2253b,46545ce12,47d92c5fc8,0.html


According to the Norwegian Refugee Council, regional conflicts in Jammu and Kashmir, Gujarat, and the northeast displaced at least 650,000 persons. Approximately 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits forced to flee the Kashmir Valley in the early 1990s after the outbreak of separatist violence remained in IDP camps in Jammu and New Delhi. They were unable to return to their homes in Jammu and Kashmir because of safety concerns, including the ongoing killings of Hindus in the state.

According to the Ministry of Home Affairs' Annual Report for 2006-2007, there were 55,950 Kashmiri Pandit migrant families, of which 34,562 resided in Jammu, 19,338 in Delhi, and 2,050 in other states. There were 230 migrant families living in 14 camps in Delhi and 5,778 families in 16 camps in Jammu.
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PostSubject: @ABC   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:10 pm

Quote :
I agree with LiberalM on most of the point but there is need to analyze the "millitancy" and the pshyche of millitants before making a call that Muslims in General of Valley supported and/or participated in the crimes.

1) supported : As you mentioned its no doubt that wide support exist even today. By letting them use the facilites, giving shelter, hailing them as martyr, not reporting their sightings, not condeming ever publicly, never telling their hideouts or their plans. Its unthinkable that millitancy can continue for 20 years without local support, Its closely interwined, the only difference is if their is gun in your hand or not.
A small answer: There is a wide support for the concept of freedom, but a negligible or no support for armed militants today. We shall have to understand this subtle difference and accept it.
Quote :
When was the last time that "A millitant" was reported by "A Civilian Muslim" of the valley?
Answer: More times that a common citizen is likely to know. There is a majority of peace loving kashmiri citizens too, this we also must understand.

Quote :
Committed the crime: When its riots and massacre (Mobocracy) any one can do what they want their is no distinction of general mass and specific millitant or its group, But there were no reporting, no mothers came out to tell that my son has done this crime, they have always assisted the cause, and as you have seen even in "peaceful" demonstration, they were openly throwing stones on police, this is called riots, Also they openly hail pakistan's flag, now its common sense that "friend of enemy is enemy"
Answer: I am compelled to cite the instance of what has been happening in Orissa these days. A nun was raped by people chanting patriotic slogans. But would you say all indians are like that? Is there an answer to our questions in this comparison??
Quote :
I am sure much of the folks on this forum are not aware of number of terrorist (Freedom Figheters) organisation in kashmir:
I cannot resist. Let me tell you (and believe me I am qualified to say so), that out of the list that you provided, there are only 2, or at best 3 groups who can be tabled as pro freedom groups. The rest are pan- islamic terror groups and ‘freedom’ was never and will never be their agenda. These pan-islamic terror groups have no takers in Kashmir. This is the ground reality.
regards
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PostSubject: Re: Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:11 pm

what i meant was that nobody proved from HRW regarding mass rapes of pandit women or kashmiri muslims using mosque loudspeakers to threaten pandits..it just exageration of the whole events..
...however even if i agree with the rest what mr.hated-in replied to my post i will not request but DEMAND an explaination from him for propagating false information on the forum.he wrote about the exodus of 3,00,00 to 4,00,00 pandits from the kashmir division...let me write some statistics for u and others too who have been reading and sending too many pro-indian links...
Quote :
these are the statistics by the government of jammu & kashmir in there digest of statistics which they update once in ten years..the statistics are collected by the directorate of economic and statistics-planning and development department..
population of hindus in KASHMIR DIVISION in 1981
1.anantnag=24731
2.pulwama=10096
3.srinagar=59449
4.budgam=9642
baramulla=13513
kupwara=6647
the total population of kashmiri pandits in kashmir division was 1,24,078 which makes up just 3.95%..
these are the statistics by the state government and i am sure no common sense would even think of pandit population getting increased by 3 to 4 lacs in just 8 years as per your statistics...
this is what i mean when i say that people are fed with pro-indian and biased sites which always exagerates these figures in there favour.this information is no personal opinion neither from any survey from any NGO...now in this case u are most welcome to defend urself by giving the figures by any higher authority than the state government itself to prove ur statistics otherwise i can rightly accuse u of propagating wrong information amongst us all here...
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PostSubject: @peace   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:17 pm

@peace

You have to go through the all links provided before.
Luckily they are still in the forum

Rapes:
Numerous examples of Millitant rapes are cited.
About Mass or Not ... You have check with HRW that when it mention rapes does it mean 1 or 50 or 100.
This is pointless argument when rape is mentioned in the reports, you are arguing about it was gang rape or mass rape or not.

Loudspeakers:
One of the link of HRW is given earlier for use of loudspeakers

Numbers of KP
thanks for providing the numbers,
WE have also provided UNHCR link which the detail
You can take the matter with UN to dispute it.

All links we have provided shows rapes, use of loudspeakers, and numbers
And none of the link are pro Indian.

Also I will request to go through the links posted earlier in the forum
And if you still disagree after giving HRW and UNHCR references along with times, NYT and other references,
then ...........?????????????????
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