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vakibs
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PostSubject: Why are Kashmiris special ?   Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:00 pm

Dear Bloggers

I would like to ask you a simple question, please give me an honest reply.

I have deep respect for Kashmiri culture, and I strongly support your self-rule. As an Indian, I am ashamed of the continued presence of the Indian army and the daily harassment that it means for several Kashmiris.

But at the same time, I do not understand how Kashmir is different from any other region in India. Why should Kashmiris be treated special ? In which aspect, is Kashmiri history or culture more independent from India than other regions. I will give you just two examples : Assam and Tamil Nadu.

Since the mainstream India is represented by Uttar Pradesh (the most populous North Indian state), I will compare against this.

Assamese people are descendents of the Ahom kings who are related to the Tai ethnic group in China. Though they speak an Indo-Aryan language, their culture and geography are very different from Uttar Pradesh.

Tamil people speak a language totally unrelated to the Indo-Aryan family. Their culture and geography are also totally different from Uttar Pradesh. Their food habits are also different. With respect to religion, they the majority of Tamils say they are Hindus, their temples and the pantheon of gods is very different from the practices of people in Uttar Pradesh.

There are a significant number of people in Assam and Tamil Nadu who think their land doesn't belong to India.

Why should you Kashmiris be treated special ? Why do you deserve a plebiscite but Tamilian and Assamese people don't ?

Actually, the same thing can be said about Andhra people, Malayali people, Bengali people, Oriya people, Punjabi people and so on..

Similarly, I will bring about the regions in Pakistan : Sind, Baluchistan and Pashtunistan. All these people want indpendence from Pakistan and they have very active separatist elements (much more than in India) but they don't get enough media coverage. What is your stance on the Baluchi / Sindhi independence movements ? The Pashtuns are artificially divided, just like you, by a silly border called Durand line. Do Pashtuns deserve a referendum on the Durand line or not ?

How do you visualize an independent Kashmir ? You cannot afford to not think about the rest of India or Pakistan because they will be sorrounding your borders and will be a major trading partner. Do you visualize Kashmir in a sea of tiny states (Punjab+Pashtunistan+Himachal+Sind+...) or do you visualize Kashmir as having borders only with India or Pakistan ? The former case will be very volatile because each individual state can maintain its own military and make wars / terrrorism against other states. There is no guarantee that these states will be democratic. The later case is very difficult (united India and Pakistan) after Kashmiri independence. Once a region starts to break away, the whole nation disintegrates as in the recent history of Yugoslavia.

Particularly important in that disintegration is the fate of 150 million Muslim people living in India. Kashmir has just 6 to 7 million Muslims. In contrast, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Bengal, Andhra Pradesh etc.. have little pockets of regions (maybe about the same size as the Kashmiri valley) which have 10 million Muslims each. These regions are sorrounded by a sea of Hindu regions and do not have defendible physical borders. What is the guarantee that all these Muslims will not be massacred (similar to what happened during the partition) ? Are you Kashmiris prepared to carry the blood of fellow Indian Muslims on the eve of your independence ?
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kits
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PostSubject: Re: Why are Kashmiris special ?   Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:58 am

in reply to above poster.

by the same logic. what makes srilanka, bhutan, nepal, maldives, bangladesh, burma so on and so forth so special that they are independent countries. Why dont you use the same argument to force them to join your pathetic country?
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vakibs
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PostSubject: actually you are reinforcing my argument   Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:35 am

The European Union started as a union between France and Germany, as a means of avoiding future armed conflicts, and they are growing steadily by accommodating all the countries in mainland Europe.

Similarly, the Indian union started with a set of regions, but there is nothing preventing the other countries (in the SAARC region .. such as the various regions in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Nepal) to join the union. They will do so if they think that such a union is profitable to them (as is the case with the EU which is economically stronger than the countries seeking membership). Also, it is about the differentiation of the political responsibilities in a federal set up and whether that will be acceptable to the region in question : who would handle military, who would handle foreign affairs, who would handle education, who would handle health, what is the ratio of taxes that are sent to the federal government etc.

Now the question between Kashmiris is would they want to create such a union (with a high degree of federalization) or would they keep arguing for an independent homeland. In the case of the latter, they have to tackle and convince the national interests of India and Pakistan to vacate their land. As I argued earlier, this means they have to effectively dismember the Indian union and Pakistani union. Achieving independence for Kashmir is a job nothing short of this.

For comparison, imagine the Indian independence movement from Britain. If India needed Britain to be dismembered into Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland as a pre-requisite for its own independence, the task would be just a million times harder.

Take a note of this.
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kits
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PostSubject: Re: Why are Kashmiris special ?   Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:58 am

Good, you realize that the onus is on these countries (nepal, srilanka..etc) and not the prerogative of India on whehter they want to be part of the federation.

Similarly, the onus should be on the people of Kashmir whether they want to be part of your country.

We have given it a careful thought and lost many lives in getting across the message - we want nothing to do with India.

Therefore please pack your bags and leave us be.

You can make an "EU" of your own without Kashmir being part of your rag-tag federation.
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vakibs
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PostSubject: You cannot ignore political reality   Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:35 pm

KITS,

Kashmir is no different from Bhutan or Srilanka, from the point of view of cultural or historical independence. But it is different from them on the sheer basis of political reality. It is under the control of a sovereign democratic state, that is India. The Indian Union has a history of 60 years. For comparison, EU is just 15 years old. And the question for Kashmir is not about joining the Union, but about leaving it. No country in EU has yet faced this question, so I cannot give you a reference of how difficult this process will be. Multiply that difficulty with 4, and you will understand the nature of the problem.

You want complete political independence ? Good. But as I mentioned earlier, it is not like saying "Give Kashmir its independence. And you go your own way." It is like saying "We will kill India, and then we will get Kashmir". It means unraveling the entire Indian Union : good luck with that !

The fact is this union is 60 years strong, and the majority of its citizens grew up to call this country home. So you have to contend with all these sentiments to achieve your desire. I am not saying it is impossible, just that it is much more difficult than you imagine it is. You have to know your opponent well before you begin your battle. And then you will see how many people can actually agree with you and "join" you in the battle, and agree with you again on "how" the battle should be fought.
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dark.wan
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PostSubject: Reply to post   Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:22 pm

Dear blogger,
As far as your question related to Kashmir’s being treated special I think the answer lies in the history of the culture and the origin of the reason why Kashmir is in the state it’s at the moment. Kashmir has a 60 year old UN pending referendum and other political issues which pertain to the historical origin of Indian rule and the reason Indian army is still on the soil of Kashmir. It’s not about treating Kashmiri people ‘special’ or ‘unique’ it’s about giving humans the basic fundamental right to freedom.
As far as other region of India are concerned if they have such pending political issues or international referendums I would argue they be given such status.
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the_unheard_voice
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PostSubject: @ Vakibs: Are you aware?   Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:25 pm

Dear Vakibs,

Somehow I feel you are not like all those millions of blind Indian chauvinists who won`t understand if apprised of the reality.
I do however suspect that you are not fully aware of the history of Kashmir.

First of all, we never said we are special. We are just common, mundane, trivial human beings who want to live life like all the people around the world do.

Now coming to the point, I wonder if you know that at the time of partition, the 545 princely states of the pre-independent India were given a choice to choose which side they wanted to join. Kashmir, being predominantly a Muslim dominated state should have ended up with Pakistan but for the collusion of the ruling King and Indian top brass. Having realized his folly, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru promised the people of Kashmir a choice to vote, vote for the side they want to be with. There are umpteen corroborations that he did. If India says they can deny it, that will be a blunder. Hence you never hear them confronting on that point. That right of self determination was never given to Kashmiris. That is what we want.

If you still think we are special, it is India that has made us so, by deceiving us time and again!
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arun
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PostSubject: Small states -cannor survive.   Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:45 pm

small countires - cannot survive.

Let's assume- Kashmir is a country.
there will be no change in lives of people in terms of quality and prosperity..they have to depend either India or Pakisthan or China..for each and everything.



future generations will suffer a lot if kashmir is become country.

the world becoming borderless...technologically.

Let's dream about a greater India.
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gamukh
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PostSubject: Re: Why are Kashmiris special ?   Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:42 pm

@arun

Not possible when India has killed 250,000 Kashmiris.

Bhutan, Nepal, Mauritius, Srilanka, East Timor, Kosovo, luxemborg, so on and so forth. If they can survive so can we.

If amalgamating with a bigger country makes sense to you, then why doesnt India surrender its sovereignty to china? Isnt that what your argument is?
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sanjith
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PostSubject: oye oye   Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:18 pm

So Kashmir does not have any connection to India. then Delhi has no connection to India, it was ruled by Muslims before and has a lot of Muslims even now, lucknow has no connection to india, it has lots of muslims, in that way you look at any indian district with more population of muslims do not have any connection with India. r u real! Hyderabad in Deccan has no connection to India.

And the bloke who talked about India killing 250K Kashmiris, who asked you to start killing our soldiers? who asked u to start talking about raping Hindu women ? who asked you to call our enemy Pakistan your brother? you mean to say, we are tooth fairies and goody two shoes nuts who cannot see through the wahabi perfidy! Americans do not utter anything remotely about the K word anywhere in the Capital. Ombaba came here and talked about Burma!

Our connection with Kashmir did not start from 1947. Kashmir finds mention in Mahabharatha downwards..yes Kandhar is also there...Sindh is also there...yes, all in due time. Whats 63 years...in a nations history!
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Sushmathakur
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PostSubject: Re: Why are Kashmiris special ?   Mon May 13, 2013 6:28 pm

since people have been doing this from the very beginning so it follows from then.
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