HomeSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Kashmir cannot be allowed independence

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
hated-in
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:53 pm

Quote :

and to all the indians commenting here...i think we need to be fair and just when it comes to debating on kashmir and not simply rant with all the vocabulary we know because we can...for six decades people screwed up right from india's nehru and pakistan's jinnah to the current governments, things could have been a lot different, we made a lot of mistakes, and we did a lot of good too, but in the end, if people of kashmir say the harm has been more than the good, i think it's only just they get what they need. plain emotion and things like 'how can we give away kashmir?' won't help...on the contrary, it might just help india in a lot of ways. it will not harm the secular fabric of india or our economic progress in any way.

Kashmir Valley (where the problem is confined) is a very small area of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. There is no problem in Jammu, Leh, and Laddhak and these regions would want to stay with India. Are the Kashmirs willing to split Kashmir again?

India is a multi-ethinic and multi-religioius country with a long history. Hence, problems and grievances are bound to arise and you simply can't give away a piece of land every time a group of 5 to 10 million people get together and demanded freedom or every time a country disputed our borders. Giving Kashmir away will set a very bad example for future. First you give away Kashmir Valley (not Leh, not Laddhak, not Jammu) and then what? You give away Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh to China, and break the rest into 100 or so along religious, ethnic, or language lines just becuase there is also a "Punjabiyat", "Rajasthaniyat", and "Tamiliyat", along with "Kashmiriyat"? Sorry not happening.

Whether you realize it or not, our collective survival, freedom, and growth for the next thousand years depends upon how well we can stay united. Every time, India was divided a foreign power came in and ruled/exploited India. And if you divide India again into 50 or so smaller pieces it will happen again (specially with neighbors like China and Pakistan).

From what I can see Kashmiries have only two choices: 1) fight for "freedom" forever, or 2) decide to stay peacefully in India and eventually govern all of India.

If you guys (and yes I am talking to Kashmirs here) think that India is so bad and you are so good and that after freedom Kashmir will be a heaven on earth (rather than a center for Islamic terrorism), please do all of us a favor and rule entire India instead. But no, you guys are too short sighted to realize that. Still don't know what I am talking about right? Well its called democracy. The Sikhs realized it pretty fast after the Punjab insurgency in the 1980s and now they are literally and figuratively ruling entire India. Mahmohan Singh (a Sikh) is the PM and runs the government. Motek Singh (another Sikh) is the Chief Finance Advisor and literally runs the Indian economy, and Genral Joginder Singh (Sikh again) runs the Indian army.

Who could have imagined during the Punjab insurgency that after 20 years Sikhs will be running the government, the economy, and the army of India. Coalition politics in India (which is the norm now) makes it very very possible.

So again you have a choice: either you can continue to fight for freedom from India for eternity or you can rule not just Kashmir, but the entire India?

They way people use the term "India" in this discussion forum is as if "India" is some sort of a monolithic entity. Who do you think India is? India is just a collection of hundreds of ethnic groups like Kashmirs with populations ranging from 5 million to 10 million? Why so arrogant to think you are so special as to deserve some special "freedom"?
Back to top Go down
Rajiv
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:07 am

I would first congratulate the administrator of this blog for his/her understanding and facilitating a free exchange of thoughts and perceptions here. For those who have lived, worked, or mingled in the Kashmir valley, it is easy to understand that the issue of 'azadi of Kashmir' is a sentimental issue here. It is an issue that is discussed in drawing rooms, coffee houses, universities, religious congregations, international forums, etc. They have from time to time exhibited their revolt against integration with india, who is seen as the 'occupying force', carried on and supported an armed struggle against india, indegenously and with political and armed support of pakistan, and later even in collusion with pan Islamist terrorist groups initially affectionately designated as freedom fighters.

Sadly, violence in any form invites its own demons, and it was not different in this case too, as soon enough the demon turned against many peace loving kashmiris. They are taking their pound of flesh, in a way that only a kashmiri can understand. Committed to azadi beyond redemption is kashmir today, and no other reasoning will work. Its 'enough is enough' for both across the divide situation.

My object in skimming through the past is to try and tell people who get into 'you did this, you did that brawls' here, that this is an issue that demands respect and sobriety. Its like a person trying to fight cancer without proper treatment. The cancer that did not ask before it developed. A cancer that no one wanted. Lets address that instead of discussing history that everyone knows anyways. Or else we can carry on blaming kashmir for unpatriotic posturing and being anti nationals and at the same time saying yes to all the money and projects that came out of the indian taxpayers money, and kashmir blaming india for using brutal force in suppressing the armed revolt perpetuated by them,... and it can go on and on.

On the issue of Azadi for kashmir, lets say that a premise be made wherein it is decided to allow plebisite in J&K. Who makes it is important but lets discuss that as we progress. Lets disregard all voices opposing it. Ok, as a layman, I have a few questions here:

1. India and Pakistan would need to agree to de-militarise both divides of jammu & kashmir and replace it with UN peacekeeping forces . Which means leave their positions won or lost at the cost of bloody wars and skirmishes, remove all ordinance, remove personnel from strategic locations, vacate their headquarters, permanent war equipment etc etc at a huge loss to their resources.

India could maybe withstand the economic brunt of this mammoth exercse, what about pakistan, can they inspite of their sorry state of economics? What kind of a pressure would make them withdraw from their territorial domains. Who will apply the pressure? Indian and pakistan governments? Kashmiri people? (55% of the J&K population?)USA? EU? who?

2. It can be safely estimated that 45% of the hindu, buddhist and christian population will vote for India. No doubtes about that. The kashmir valley will totally vote azadi, but accross the banihal tunnel, there are muslims in the districts of Poonch, Rajouri and Doda, and Kathua who may opt for India. You can never be sure. Anyways, lets asume that the plebisite is in favour of azadi. How would you divide J&K with about 50% spread out in different areas voting for India? Or would kashmiri azadi settle for holding 45% hindus and 4% muslims who vote for india against their wishes?

3. Lets talk about infrastructure and economics. Lets not go into details. Lets talk about basics.

Which army is going to ensure the territorial integrity of independent kashmir? Pakistani, Indian or Nato forces who are fighting terror in Afganistan, Iraq, and other places? (UN forces are dependant of NATO forces you know, since they dont have regular armies) And if you get NATO there with the usual components from the US, UK, Germany etc., there will surely be the talibans and al-quaidas, and more shifting fro afganistan and eslewhere. Pakistan would not mind that as long as they give free access to them to cross over into independant kashmir as long as they dont foment terror in their frontiers. How long will it take independent kashmir to raise its own army? Their Police? Will it again have to depend on India for goodies? From which resources will they get the hardware and technology? Who will finance them, and at what cost? Will it follow that kashmir becomes a hot spot for international exploitation. Will it in any way change the basic ethos of 'kashmiriat'. Will it convert kashmir yet again into an existance of blurred nationality?

Lets talk about technological infrastructure, Roads, power generation, communication, Industry, Railways, Airports. So far all of them, and development were with compliments from the govt of India, and many of them run and managed by personell from India with technology imported from India without a cost. How will Independent kashmir gather resources to give its people the quality of life existing till now? Are you sure that tourism industry will be able to get kashmir its financial resources when it is known that the State had to desperately depend on huge resources from India even when tourism and other fruit trade in kashmir was at its peak? I have read somewhere in this blog about that kashmir has enough power generation capabilities to cater to a good economy. It is true if the whole of J&K is taken as azad, which will probably never be the case. Many of the power generation resources fall across the tunnel, and seems impossible that india will forego either the territory or resource when in comes to the finals. Therefore who do you think will be able to exert that much pressure on india to let go of these natural resources?

The above were only some of the contentions that I do strongly feel about. I believe it is always better to look the devil in its face and then take it on. It is better to have a clarity of perception before a decision. The decisions, I believe is each to his own. Thats a right all should enjoy, but should be calibrated and specific. I am sure someone in this forum has a better perception than mine. I shall wait for it and will add as more thoughts surface.

Rajiv
Back to top Go down
someone
Guest



PostSubject: Kashmiris alienated others.   Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:08 am

Other day I was doing some research and found that if Kashmir to be declared independent they may not more then 4 Districts it is very very very lucky - and if plebsite happens tommorow and 35% people voting to merge with india and Ladhkh and Jammu 90% (conservative) merging with INDIA - Guess what will be the results.

I think the issue is kept alive from both PAKISTAN and INDIAN side, as people involved are benefiting from the crisis and would not like the issue to die down.
Back to top Go down
Abode of
Guest



PostSubject: Independent Kashmir   Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:15 am

Kashmir Valley, Doda, Kishtawar, Poonch, Rajouri, banihal and Kargil almost all districts will vote for independence from India barring Jammu/Kathua and half of Udhampur. Ladakh has more in common with Kashmir and has ancient trade routes connecting it with us, if given a choice in a free world they actually may see more reason in voting for independence rather than staying with India. So ours won't be a small Kashmir valley by any standards as depicted by the author hated-in.

One of our guests Hated-In repeatedly keeps on beating the the same lines however my simple answer to him is that he can't profile Jammu & Kashmir in the same way as other Indian states. Jammu & Kashmir is a disputed territory according to International world bodies. Not even a single country in the world and I REPEAT NOT EVEN A SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ACKNOWLEDGES JAMMU & KASHMIR TO BE A PART OF INDIA. The same International governments/countries don't talk about other states in India on the same level as J&K. To them whether it is Punjab or Tamil Nadu or the North East are internal matters of India however when it comes to J&K, they beg to differ as each country has ample proof in the form of many UN resolutions etc that Kashmir is a disputed territory. I would want my good friend hated-in to look at Maps published by CIA (World fact book) or BBC (Country profiles). They do not consider Kashmir as a part of India but a disputed territory administered by different countries. These and many other organisations when they calculate the total land area of India will never include the territory of Jammu & Kashmir in the Indian Union.

True India is a diverse nation and we don't deny that. It therefore has to follow some international obligations as a budding nation and leave territories occupied by it illegally. One more point that I would like to emphasize on is that after due delibration at the security council in 1948, it was found that the instrument of accession signed by the Maharaja holds no locus standii vis a vis Kashmir as states like Junagadh and Hyderabad with Muslim rulers who favoured accession to Pakistan were annexed by the Indian union on the basis of majority population being Hindus. Thus The instrument of accession according to UN is illegal and void as aspirations of the people are of paramount importance.

Jammu & Kashmir "was never", "is not" and "will never" be recognised as a part of India by the International community and parroting the slogan "integral part of India" will lead us nowhere. We need to sit down and constructively think how we can withdraw the Indian Occupation forces from J&K and conduct an impartial plebescite. If the majority will choose India....majority of us will accept it and so will the world bodies. Trust me this is the only way to do justice to Jammu & Kashmir.

After all what is a democracy but the aspirations and will of a free people and as put in by our guest hated-in INDIA for the first time in Kashmir will prove its democratic credentials which he frequently boasts of.
Back to top Go down
hated-in
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:06 pm

Quote :

So ours won't be a small Kashmir valley by any standards as depicted by the author hated-in.

I am sure your separatist leaders haven't told you this, but you have already lost POK for sure. POK definitely won't be part of so called "Independent Kashmir". The reason being that Pakistan has been encouraging non Kashmiries to migrate into POK which has reduced Kashmiries in POK to a minority.

As for the rest, all I wanted to point out was that there will be a split in J&K if a referendum was to occur. If you say the Buddhist majority areas will vote for Independence and hence for joining an Islamic state, so be it for you. But I will stick with my numbers according to which you are not getting anything more than Kashmir Valley (and as somebody pointed out that too may be doubtful).

Quote :

One more point that I would like to emphasize on is that after due delibration at the security council in 1948, it was found that the instrument of accession signed by the Maharaja holds no locus standii vis a vis Kashmir as states like Junagadh and Hyderabad with Muslim rulers who favoured accession to Pakistan were annexed by the Indian union on the basis of majority population being Hindus.

The bottom line is that: 1)all three rulers signed instrument of accession with India, but not with Pakistan, and 2)public in all three princely states, including Kashmir, celebrated when these states integrated with India, 3) even UN does not care about its resolutions on Kashmir anymore (you are stuck in the past).

Also note that in case of Kashmir, the elected legislative assembly of J&K even ratified the instrument of accession with India. This basically means that the people of J&K did endorse integration with India at the time just like they celebrated when Indian army entered Srinagar.
Back to top Go down
Abode of
Guest



PostSubject: Kashmir Independence   Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:52 pm

Mr. Hated in, you are most likely a crazy Indian who cannot understand the word "annexed". Junagadh and Hyderabad state rulers wanted to sign the intstrument of accession with Pakistan but were sidelined by the Indians and their territory was taken by force. Do you understand that.....no celebrations were held as both the Nizam of hyderabad and the King of Junagadh had to flee India. I think your stupid rhetoric has no value over here. Do some research on topics first and then make statements. You have convinced me that your knowledge is meagre and henceforth I will consider it crazy to reply to your biased posts.

Once again when you state your opinions do some research first.
Back to top Go down
peace
Leading Member
Leading Member
avatar

Posts : 132
Join date : 2008-08-17

PostSubject: @ abode   Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:02 pm

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy ....let me not sound something which is unwanted here but i could not stop myself laughing at ur comments for hated-in....dear brother it was few days back when i stopped replying to his posts because i realized it earlier..i had written a similar comment to mukhtar..it is ur and mine stupidity to even consider replying to his posts coz he is here for just arguments and baseless statements which made me wonder if they are worth even replying....
Back to top Go down
hated-in
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Posts : 76
Join date : 2008-09-03

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:42 pm

Quote :

Mr. Hated in, you are most likely a crazy Indian who cannot understand the word "annexed". Junagadh and Hyderabad state rulers wanted to sign the instrument of accession with Pakistan but were sidelined by the Indians and their territory was taken by force.

The so called choice given to princely state regarding joining India or joining Pakistan or staying independent wasn't a clean cut choice. Geographical continuity was also an issue with princely states being clearly told that they should consider where they lie geographically in making the decision. This specially applied to Hyderabad and Junagarh since both were completely surrounded by India on all sides. On Pakistani side Kalat was another example that was completely surrounded by Pakistan.

In practical terms, both Pakistan and India were pressuring and influencing princely states and princely states such as Junagarh and Hyderabad were also maneuvering.

The ruler of Junagarh wanted to merge with Pakistan but this lead to a virtual revolt within his state (with 2 sub-states declaring that they would merge with India).

Hyderabad ruler started terrorizing Hindu population in order to ensure muslim dominance in his state.

All these push and pulls and influencing of neighboring princely states lead to Indian Army finally entering both Hyderabad and Junagarh. This is hardly comparable to a clean-cut case of invasion like operation Vijay that liberated Goa from Portuguese hands.

In case of Hyderabad the Nizam did sign the instrument of accession although very grudgingly. In case of Junagarh Shah Nawaz Bhutto, the father of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto - first PM of Pakistan, decided to invite the Government of India to intervene much to the dissapointment of Pakistani government at the time.

On the Pakistani side similar issues developed in case of Baluchistan with continued problems (perhaps more serious than even Kashmir issue itself) continuing today.

So to say that India "annexed" Junagarh and Hyderabad would be a gross over-simplification. Although I would agree with you that a formal instrument of accession was not signed in case of Junagarh only (and do correct me if I am wrong).

The situation that lead to J&K accession to India was much more clean-cut as compared to say Junagarh, Hyderabad, or Kalat/Baluchistan in pakistan where problems continue despite the fact that both Baluchistan and Pakistan are completely Muslim.

Now perhaps you would like to comment on the following which you missed out on commenting earlier (and do feel free to get into specifics) or hide behind the veil of my crazyness?:

Quote :

The combined population of "Azad" Kashmir and "Northern Areas" was about 25% of the total in 1947, it is 33% now, despite the fact that J&K 's population has itself grown at a high rate of 29% every decade since 1961. This unusually high increase in "Azad" Kashmir's and "Northern Areas" population is attributed to Pakistan's attempts to change the demographics of areas under its occupation, especially in "Northern Areas", with the settlement of Punjabis and NWFP Pathans in these areas. This settlement policy was actively pursued after the Shia revolt of 1988 was brutally crushed by the now Pakistan military Chief, General Parvez Musharraf. On the other hand, it should be noted that non-residents of J&K are prevented under the J&K and Indian constitution from buying property in J&K. This has prevented the Indian government from any attempts at changing the state's demographics.
Back to top Go down
hated-in
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Posts : 76
Join date : 2008-09-03

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:36 pm

This is an old analysis (1999) as to what will happen if a plebiscite is held. Much of it still stands today.

Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) is not a state where only Kashmiri Muslims live. It is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state with 64% Muslims, 33% Hindus, and 3% Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians and others. There are three distinct geographical regions - Ladakh (with 58% of the area, and 3% of the population), Jammu (26% area, 45% population) and Kashmir (16% area, 52% population: of which over 90 % of the region's minorities, i.e. 3% of the state's total population have been driven out).

Fifteen per cent of the state's Muslims live in the provinces of Jammu and Ladakh . They are non-Kashmiris, and by and large, they stand behind J&K's association with India. (There are a few small exceptions in some towns of Doda district). Of the state's 49% who reside in the Kashmir province, about 13% are Shia Muslims. Shia Muslims do not wish to have anything to do with Sunni-dominated Pakistan, knowing full well the fate that awaits them there. (Just recently, an Oct 4, Hindustan Times report cited Pakistan's Shoora Wahdat-i-Islami who condemned what it called the genocide of Shias in Pakistan.) This is especially true of the Shias of Kargil who know of the poverty and degradation experienced by their ethnic siblings in Baltistan, a part of Pakistan occupied Kashmir referred to as the "Northern Areas". 14% of the people in Kashmir province are the pastoral nomadic Gujar and Bakarwal people. They are strong supporters of association with India and have demonstrated this by organizing Militancy Mukhalif Morcha (Anti-Militancy Front) to assist the security forces in surveillance of terrorist activity. As far as non-Muslim groups are concerned there is no reason for them to even think about living outside multi-religious and secular India.

The support for secession in Jammu & Kashmir is thus largely limited to the non-pastoral Sunni Muslim population of the Kashmir Valley who constitute 22% of the state's population, (or about 1.9 million people). This segment of the population dominates the politics of the state. The reason that many believe separatism to be a widespread sentiment in J&K is because this dominant section has succeeded in completely drowning out all other voices in the state, and has the ability to cripple the normal functioning of the society in Kashmir province; either by inaction or insufficient action against Pakistani infiltration and terror or, worst still, by sabotage. It is this section of the state's population that receives all the attention, understandably so from Pakistan and the imperialist nations, but also from the Indian press.

Since the concept of self-determination must be applied to each of Jammu & Kashmir's unique population groups, there can be no equation of self-determination with secession. If, however, the undivided state (including the Pakistan occupied regions of Kashmir which Pakistan refers to s "Azad" Kashmir & "Northern Areas") were to have a referendum under truly neutral supervision, and the people were given three options - join India, join Pakistan or be independent -- the results might be shocking to votaries of secession. The majority could very well go with India, because the separatists will split the vote between pro-Pakistan and pro-independence groups. Sayyed Ali Gilani, Jammu & Kashmir's Jamaat-e-Islami leader, opposes the option of independence precisely because he is afraid that this vote may split in India's favor. [Ref. 2]

On the other hand, if the people of the state are given only two choices - join India or join Pakistan - the majority vote could still go in India's favor. Of the 12.8 million people in the undivided state (1999 estimates, see also Note below), J&K's population is 8.5 million, "Azad" Kashmir's is 2.8 million and "Northern Areas" is 1.5 million. If 1.9 million from J&K and all of "Azad" Kashmir and "Northern Areas" vote for Pakistan, it still gives India a vote of 6.6 million and leaves Pakistan with 6.2 million! Even if provision were made in this analysis for erosion of support for India as a result of the current turmoil, and some sprinkling of support for Pakistan from other Muslim groups in the state, the results of the referendum would be too close to call.

Source: http://india_resource.tripod.com/kashmir.html
Back to top Go down
apple
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:15 pm

if u r so sure then why r indians afraid of holding plebicite Laughing
Back to top Go down
hated-in
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Posts : 76
Join date : 2008-09-03

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:29 pm

What I was trying to say is that the separatists who so vehemently advocate a plebiscite should not be so sure that they would necessarily get J&K to either merge with Pakistan or become a politically independent country. The data and analysis above clearly point that out.

Am I sure whether India would come out on top in Plebiscite? No, but everything indicates that its quite possible. Pakistan may take risks in creating Kargill conflict, sponsoring and fostering terrorism, flipping between democracy and military rule, or changing its Afghan policy overnight in face of American aid and threats, but we in India (which includes you the Kashmiri separatists as well and most definitely the Kashmiri people in general) have moved well beyond the point of taking such frivolous risks. The long term growth, development, and security of a country and its population is not based on taking such frivolous, obsolete, and outdated risks such as a plebiscite. You need to be doubly sure when such risks (plebiscite) is being advocated and supported by an anarchy like Pakistan.

And what will happen if India comes out on the top of the plebiscite? Will Kashmiri separatists and Pakistani generals retire into peaceful sedentary life? Realistically that is impossible. Most likely they will start looking at new loopholes or grievances (or creating new grievances if none exist) that they can exploit to create trouble and instability again.

There are other reasons as well. The "root cause" of Kashmiri separatists movement is the desire to form of an Islamic state. This goes against the character of J&K which is religiously diverse state and mostly secular like the rest of India as opposed to Pakistan which is an Islamic state. So irrespective of whether a plebiscite is held or not the issue of dividing the country based on religious/ethnic lines is against the very core of what is India and certainly not possible.

Today Kashmir Valley has some actual and/or perceived grievances for which they want plebiscite tomorrow some other group in India may have grievances and request plebiscite by giving the Kashmir example and saying "You allowed Kashmirs to have plebiscite, why not us" (keep in mind that Kashmiri separatists and Pakistani already quote examples of Junagarh and Hyderabad because in there mind religion is the primary factor for deciding accession or separation to/from a country). You certainly won't have trouble finding grievances or divisions in India if that is what you like to focus on.

Merger of J&K with Pakistan or so called "independent J&K" is an impossibility. Certainly, separation of POK and Northern Areas from the anarchy of Pakistan is quite possible. The sooner the Kashmiri separatists realize that the sooner peace and prosperity will return to valley and the sooner human rights violations will disappear.
Back to top Go down
guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:35 am

You know what hated-in, the reply to your post would be "Media Propaganda by Indian agencies".
Thats what their sensibilities revolve around and they can't get out of that, no matter how hard you try.
Back to top Go down
Anon
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:39 pm

Just calling it indian propoganda and shrugging it off will surely give others the opportunity to call your freedom movement an 'islamic propaganda' and shrug many of your exaggerated stories off. If you think hated-in's analyses is wrong, then prove him wrong .
Back to top Go down
peace
Leading Member
Leading Member
avatar

Posts : 132
Join date : 2008-08-17

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:25 am

hated-in i read ur copy paste analysis form the source itself..those are personal views of a pandit i guess..
...the only problem with the analysis is lots of "if's" and "but's"...this analysis seems to be perfect for anyone who does not understand the region very well and who does not know the history of the state particularly at the time of partition with reference to this analysis...if u agree so much with the analysis without giving a thought then i have few questions for u..with what authority do u or the author say:
Quote :
Fifteen per cent of the state's Muslims live in the provinces of Jammu and Ladakh . They are non-Kashmiris, and by and large, they stand behind J&K's association with India.
..when u should know that it were the people of poonch who first declared there independence from the dogra maharaja rule and objected the accession to india..r u aware that poonch region is divided between india and pakistan for the same reason..???
...now there are many points which can be counter argued but can only be understood in the light of the history of the region...u say that shia's of kargil would want to merge with india rather than pakistan..now here is a problem..we are not talking here about kashmir acceding to pakistan but we are talking about independent kashmir..u should have atleast taken that into account while copy paste..the author in his analysis is discussing about the state acceding to pakistan which is not an issue here...the issue is complete independence..in that case what would be the option that kargil people would opt for..??
the problem is that u say poonch,rajouri,doda,kishtwar,bederwah..(these are all muslim regions of the state) will opt for india and i say they will opt for complete independence...then who is right or who is wrong..
we all have views here and i can counter argue very easily ur view points and u can do the same with mine..kashmir problem can be understood fully when u know its history or else one will be making castles in air...
i can asuure u the pandit fellow with the analysis knows the history fully well because then only u can keep ur views whether right or whether twisted on the table..we cnt argue on hypothetical bases and his analysis is hypothetical...
i am not trying to play a blame game but my only point is that give people a chance for themselves to decide.. these analysis dnt matter..if u give me weeks time i can come up with a same kind of analysis in favour of complete independence because that too would be hypothetical..
let the people decide themsleves...
Back to top Go down
peace
Leading Member
Leading Member
avatar

Posts : 132
Join date : 2008-08-17

PostSubject: lets analyse this..   Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:38 pm

as i said the analysis is very much right in a hypothetical situation..let us read the facts on ground and then analyse how much the analysis is correct..
Quote :

Rajouri, Sep 12: Thousands of people took to streets in Jammu's Rajouri district today raising pro-freedom slogans after Friday prayers in support of the call given by Coordination Committee, spearheading the present movement.
A massive procession was taken out which passed through the Gujjar market area and culminated near Sher-e-Kashmir bridge.
The procession was peaceful with no untoward incident was reported on the way.
The procession was led by local Hurriyat conference activists and the rally later was addressed by Hurriyat leaders Haji Ishfaq Mirza, Issar Ahmed Bhat and Umar Arshad Malik. Haji Ishfaq Mirza asked the people to be ready for the Kashmir Chalo programe.
“We are formulating a strategy for the Kashmir chalo march and the programme will be unveiled soon,” the leaders said.
Meanwhile, a day after Muslim Youth Federation banned entry of Jammu-based politicians in Poonch and Rajouri, Jammu Bar association president B S Salathia was not allowed by the Mendhar Bar association to enter court premises in the border district of Poonch.
President Mendhar Bar association Basharat Hussain Khan said they didn’t allow Salathia to enter the premises of Mendhar Munsif court.

Back to top Go down
peace
Leading Member
Leading Member
avatar

Posts : 132
Join date : 2008-08-17

PostSubject: CRPF DESECRATES DASTAGEER SAHIB SHRINE   Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:32 pm

Quote :
Srinagar, Sept 13: The Central Reserve Police Force troopers on Saturday afternoon desecrated and damaged the Dastageer Sahib Shrine at Saraibala, triggering demonstrations and clashes in which four protesters were wounded.
Eyewitnesses said that after Zuhr prayers a few hundred protesters marched towards Amira Kadal shouting pro-freedom slogans. But scores of CRPF troopers and police chased them away into the lanes of Sarai Bala.
“Seeing the protesters running away, some people who were coming out of the shrine after offering prayers went back into it. Some six to seven CRPF men entered the shrine and smashed the window at the entrance. We tried to stop them, but they were unruly and scuffled with us. Then they entered the Hammam of the shrine and beat up the civilians and two Hammamis (the caretakers of mosque),” said Ghulam Rasool and Tariq Ahmad, the police constables guarding the shrine.
Constable Zahid, who was hit with a bamboo stick by the troopers, said, “They shoved me and barged into the shrine. We tried to stop them but they wouldn’t listen to us.”
“The troopers also damaged a window on the right side of the mosque,” Muhammad Altaf, one of the Hamamis said.
“They scuffled with police on the Hammam (the granite paved entrance of the mosque) and tried to enter the main hall of the shrine,” said Ghulam Ahmad Sofi, the second Hammami.
Earlier, four persons were wounded in the clashes with CRPF and police who didn’t allow peaceful demonstration in the area.
The chairman of the shrine’s management committee, Chaudhary Me’raj-ud-din Buja, said the CRPF troopers beat-up many women who were offering prayers on the second storey of the shrine.
“They desecrated copies of Qur’an and other wall hangings having Qur’anic verses written over them,” he said.
Chaudhary Me’raj-ud-din said, “Their officers came and we conveyed our strong protest to them. We told them we won’t allow desecration of our holy places and we would rather sacrifice our lives than allow your troopers to desecrate them. They are lying that a stone was thrown from the shrine. Is it possible that any believer would throw stone from this holy Ziyarat.”
As the CRPF and police officers were talking with the local people to cool down the tempers, scores of women shouted pro-independence slogans and asked “the officers to stop state terrorism.”
“Your Hanuman Mandir is a stone’s throw away from here. Have we ever touched it? Don’t you pray there? How would you feel if we cause any harm to it?” a woman asked the CRPF officer.
As a mark of protest against the desecration, the people offered Asr prayers on Hari Singh High Street roadside. They said they won’t go into the shrine till police and CRPF apologize publicly for the act. The locals also demanded a high level probe into the incident.
JKLF chairman, Muhammad Yasin Malik, senior leader Showkat Ahmad Bakshi and Hurriyat leader Javed Ahmad Mir have strongly condemned the incident.
After the incident, scores of youth regrouped and shouted slogans near Amira Kadal, but the troopers dispersed them with teargas shells and baton charge. Many protesters were wounded. The protests later spread to the other areas including Budshah Bridge, Jehangir Chowk and Exhibition crossing, which continued till evening.
The troopers also beat up several women protesters on Koker Bazar bund, including a sixth standard student Peerzada Inayat and his mother Fahmeeda of Wazir Bagh. Inayat, a student of Tyndale Biscoe School, said the troopers beat him up with bamboo sticks and shoved his mother who fell on the road.
“I can’t tell you how they roughed me up. They are not human. I was just walking home with Inayat,” Fahmeeda told Greater Kashmir.
The women protesters on Koker Bazar Bund were trying to join the protesters in Sarai Bala. They were shouting slogans peacefully.
Back to top Go down
peace
Leading Member
Leading Member
avatar

Posts : 132
Join date : 2008-08-17

PostSubject: When 12-year-old was thrashed while shielding his mother   Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:36 pm

Quote :

Srinagar, Sep 13: To prevent his mother from lathis of the paramilitary CRPF troopers who were thrashing her at the Amira Kadal bridge Saturday, 12-year-old Biscoe Boy, Pirzada Inayat braved to act a shield on her while the troopers kept flexing their muscles. But as the little boy in shorts tried to resist, he got injured more.
“I kept shouting for help towards the JKP cops standing nearby but no one came to our rescue,” says wounded Fahmeeda as Inayat having apparent injuries on his ribs was rushed to hospital.
The mother had just picked his only son from nearby Biscoe School when they were trapped by the troopers on the deserted bridge soon after teargas shelling in the area.
“We kept walking with confidence and believed that the troopers wouldn’t attack us but our calculation went wrong.”
Fahmeeda says a group of dozen odd men in uniform cornered her and started thrashing her with lathis and she fell on the ground.
The 6th standard student jumped on his mother to shield her.
“But they (CRPF personnel) didn’t stop and started beating him the same way. I cried for help and tried to save my son,” she added.
Finally the mother-son duo managed to get out of the clutches of the troopers when some civilians approached for rescue.
The boy was immediately rushed to hospital while wounded Fahmeeda denied to go for her own treatment. Crying, she sat on the Hari Singh High Street square. People tried to console her as she shouted towards nearby paramilitary CRPF bunker saying “I am not afraid of death, I will burn you all if anything happens to son.”
“What had my innocent child done to you?” she shouted as some armed troopers kept watching her from the bunker and Inayat was being treated at the Bone & Joint Hospital, Barzulla.
Back to top Go down
ABC_to_XYZ
Leading Member
Leading Member


Posts : 124
Join date : 2008-09-20

PostSubject: PEACE   Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:22 pm

This is only one side of story.

Can you please detail on 58000 Hindus and 39000 Soldiers died.

And also dont forget to detail on Kashmiri Pundits , the endangered species,
Back to top Go down
Chinaar
Leading Member
Leading Member


Posts : 110
Join date : 2008-09-07

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:45 pm

@ABC_to_XYZ


Quote :
Can you please detail on 58000 Hindus and 39000 Soldiers died.

Any loss of life is to be condemned however can you provide an authentic source which says that 58000 Kashmiri Hindus were killed in J&K and also 39000 soldiers in the ongoing crisis.

Authentic Indian agencies put the toll of Kashmiri Hindus at less then 200 and that of soldiers at approx 2000.

I think you need to verify your sources.
Back to top Go down
ABC_to_XYZ
Leading Member
Leading Member


Posts : 124
Join date : 2008-09-20

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:02 pm

Chinaar wrote:
@ABC_to_XYZ


Quote :
Can you please detail on 58000 Hindus and 39000 Soldiers died.

Any loss of life is to be condemned however can you provide an authentic source which says that 58000 Kashmiri Hindus were killed in J&K and also 39000 soldiers in the ongoing crisis.

Authentic Indian agencies put the toll of Kashmiri Hindus at less then 200 and that of soldiers at approx 2000.

I think you need to verify your sources.

I have verified you can search in google by those figures, Its authentic.

My friend, there are no Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pots here.
We all want peace .. and want to live happily ..
I have also had the number of temples destroyed, but there is no point in getting in all that.

Reason is Creator is bigger than destroyer.
Millions of temples and Hindus are Killed in more than thousand year, but "kuch bat hai humme ki hasti mitati nahi humari"

And remember, its divide and rule by the politicians, we all children of God and All land is ours, Its only politicians who have made lines on it, to call it boundaries.
Back to top Go down
Jehangir
Full Member
Full Member


Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-09-16

PostSubject: Figures   Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:42 pm

@ABC>>>>
Plz post the links from where u got the figures coz i couldnt find the same. R u talking about Kashmir.
Back to top Go down
ABC_to_XYZ
Leading Member
Leading Member


Posts : 124
Join date : 2008-09-20

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:44 pm

I cant post the link on the forum as it dosent allow.

But I will PM it to you shortly.

Also I am talking about Jammu and Kashmir and not about Kashmir Valley.
Back to top Go down
Jehangir
Full Member
Full Member


Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-09-16

PostSubject: Exaggerated Figures   Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:41 pm

@ABC
See now what u r reading. That politician from the south must not be having a remote concern with Kashmir and he is quoting these figures. In the other link It is mentioned that more than 1,000 pandits died.(I am sorry for them from the core of my heart) Plz stop this propanganda business now.
The official figure is 209(READ JK POLICE DIARIES). Omar Abdullah quoted 361 (He is more closer to home) and certainly an Indian to the core. This is the problem with u guys. U just do not want to see the truth when it comes to K word. The politicians and the nationalistic Indian Media have spun out so much yarn that u can believe anything. There are only 3 lacs Kashmiri Pandits and 58,000 dead means a lot.
Plz do not quote such a high figure of army deaths (39,000)coz it can have a deterimental effect on the morale of the forces who are fighting unarmed Kashmir protestors.
This is an era where facts speak for themselves.Ref (Kashmir: Roots of conflict, Paths to peace... Sumantra Bose)
If u follow such leaders who feel that "they can fool all the people all the time" then i do feel that we have a leadership crisis in Kashmir and we like it that way
Back to top Go down
hated-in
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Posts : 76
Join date : 2008-09-03

PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:29 pm

I was simply looking for a demographic profile of undivided J&K to get a sense of what would happen if a plebiscite was held. This was the only one I found and this analysis seems to be well backed up by reliable facts and figures, plus the author seems to be very knowledgeable about the situation.

And do feel free to post your own analysis or other such analysis as long as you can back them up with well cited facts.

Quote :

...u say that shia's of kargil would want to merge with india rather than pakistan..

I don't say this, the author of the article said this and I think this is correct becuase during the recent Kargil conflict with Pakistan, it was the shepards of Kargil who notified the army about Pakistani intrusions in the area and during the Kargil war they supported the Indian army operations there. In return the army build clinics and schools in the area.

Quote :

now here is a problem..we are not talking here about kashmir acceding to pakistan but we are talking about independent kashmir

You may be talking about independent kashmir, but your "brothers" and leaders are definitely not doing so. Many of your leaders openly advocate merger with Pakistan and many of your "brothers" openly shouted pro-pakistani slogans during recent demonstrations. I think all of you need to sit down somewhere and figure out once for all whether you want to merge with Pakistan or gain full independence.

Quote :

the problem is that u say poonch,rajouri,doda,kishtwar,bederwah..(these are all muslim regions of the state) will opt for india and i say they will opt for complete independence...then who is right or who is wrong..

I would be very interested in district by district demographic breakdown including and urban vs. rural areas breakdown, etc as long as the source is specified and figures are well cited for and look reliable instead of made up from thin air like your claim "we are not talking here about kashmir acceding to pakistan but we are talking about independent kashmir"

Quote :

i am not trying to play a blame game but my only point is that give people a chance for themselves to decide..

Nobody has that right in India.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Kashmir cannot be allowed independence   

Back to top Go down
 
Kashmir cannot be allowed independence
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» [Only admins are allowed to see this link] Problem
» Only admins are allowed to see this image?
» only admins are allowed to see this link
» Only admins are allowed to see this link
» Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Kashmir Forum :: Kashmir forum main. :: All issues relating to Kashmir. [NO REGISTRATION IS REQUIRED. YOU MAY POST ANONYMOUSLY]-
Jump to: