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 Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed

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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:35 am

The only feasible solution to Jammu & Kashmir is that India,China, Pakistan and Kashmiris should work together with strong involvement from the U.N. They should work toward a refrendum on what the Kashmiri people want. But first it has to be under U.N. control for at least a decade so that neither Pakistan nor India have undue influence over the local population. This is the only way the people of Kashmir can stand up and decide on what kind of future they would like to have, self rule, part of Pakistan or part of India. If they choose self rule, then all major powers should guarantee (Pakistan, India, China, USA, EU, Russia) Kashmiris self rule and the U.N. should withdraw at that moment.

All other theories are bound to fail as they have been tried for 60 years now.

Again I emphasize Let the people of J&K decide what they want.......nothing could be more secular, democratic and fair.

Let Jammu & Kashmir be a bridge of peace between the enemies India & Pakistan and India & China.
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Mir
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:00 am

I think this is a good solution. I second this motion.
Good post Chinaar.
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Kashmiri
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PostSubject: Brilliant Idea   Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:11 am

Yes I agree too, this is the best way forward cause it takes into cognizance the aspirations of India as well as Pakistan viz a viz Kashmir.

Chinar u have my vote on this.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:39 am

Chinaar wrote:

Again I emphasize Let the people of J&K decide what they want.......nothing could be more secular, democratic and fair.

I don't mean to spoil the party, but anytime you get to a plebiscite, the likely scenario is that 1)POK and Northern Areas will choose to remain with Pakistan due to Pakistan changing demographic profile there, 2) Jammu and Ladhak choose to remain with India because they are uncomfortable living in an Islamic country, and 3) only Kashmir Valley gets independence, 4) Shias definitely won't like to live in a Sunni dominated state

Quote :

Let Jammu & Kashmir be a bridge of peace between the enemies India & Pakistan and India & China.

Not happening for at least 50 to 100 more years when India, Pakistan, China, and Afghanistan are all friends, there is no "jihad" movement, and all Shia-Sunni issues have been resolved, and maybe perhaps resolution of Tibet related issues in China. And by that time the world will be a much different place (hopefully for better) and the center-state-community relationships in India will be much different than what they are today.

Offcourse, one peace comes to J&K (in whichever form), I definitely see J&K evolve into a major corridor between Afghanistan, China, India, and Pakistan. J&K economy should boom just because of this reason.
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Let Kashmiris Decide what they want   Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:37 am

@hated-Indian

So in short what you are suggesting is to continue getting killed and pulverized unless we listen to the age old stance of the perverted might of India.

Dream on Hated-Indian cause we Kashmiris have lost too much to ever again listen to any India or Indian. YOU CAN Continue killing us...but we will not bow our heads to your debauchery and countless atrocities in Kashmir.

Although its fruitless to discuss issues with you on merits yet I want the whole world to see how Indians perceive us Kashmiris as nothing but a bunch of trash.

Your army killed atleast 50 Kashmiris in the recent protests and no one really bothered in India....infact went on to say that "LETS GIVE IT TO THEM" and yet when a bomb blast happens in Delhi, the whole nation is weeping and crying. .WHY SUCH DOUBLE STANDARDS......AREN'T WE KASHMIRIS HUMAN TOO....don't we have blood running in our veins or is it that INDIAN BLOOD IS MORE PRECIOUS THAN KASHMIRI BLOOD

You may quote and unquote for an eternity yet the writing is on the wall......Jammu & Kashmir is a disputed territory and not even a single nation in the world recognises it as an integral part of India.

What I have suggested is the best possible format and not a beach party however if hawks like you want to continue shedding our very cheap blood, then we have no option but to continue our moral and ethical fight of self determination as promised to us at the UN by the Indian government.

I am sure you will come back with your age old stories and rhetoric but as a human being I am requesting you to show the same pain, anguish and respect for the 100,000 plus departed Kashmiri souls that you are right now feeling for the bomb blast victims in New Delhi.

And yes stop this DIATRIBE against us poor Kashmiris Crying or Very sad .
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:12 am

Chinaar wrote:

Your army killed atleast 50 Kashmiris in the recent protests and no one really bothered in India....infact went on to say that "LETS GIVE IT TO THEM" and yet when a bomb blast happens in Delhi, the whole nation is weeping and crying. .WHY SUCH DOUBLE STANDARDS......AREN'T WE KASHMIRIS HUMAN TOO....don't we have blood running in our veins or is it that INDIAN BLOOD IS MORE PRECIOUS THAN KASHMIRI BLOOD

I can completely sympathize with the anger that you may feel when you see people who are living around you getting killed just like I may see people living around in Delhi being killed through bomb blasts yesterday. I also recognize that entire generation of people in Kashmir Valley has grown up under the gun now and getting "desensitized" to violence which is extremely concerning.

However, what I ask you to do is to do is realize that Kashmiri separatists movement has been extremely violent itself, has expunged the Kashmir valley of Kashmiri Pandits, carried out terror acts on completely innocent people, and affiliates itself with jehadist mentality of the likes of Taliban. In summary, the separatist movement is part of the problem of victimization of people in Kashmir valley.

Quote :

I am sure you will come back with your age old stories and rhetoric but as a human being I am requesting you to show the same pain, anguish and respect for the 100,000 plus departed Kashmiri souls that you are right now feeling for the bomb blast victims in New Delhi.

Do get into specifics and details. That's were the devil is and thats where reality bites otherwise we all can draw up plans in air and feel good about them. My apologies for any hurt sentiments.
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop bleeding us.   Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:40 am

@Hate-Indian



Check this image and see for yourself how even our poor women feel about your presence in Kashmir.

What do you think makes a 70 year old woman lift stones and throw at your army.
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:59 am

@chinaar

Thankyou for a good post.
I would like to add that time for "requesting" from India is long past. We are "demanding" our rights. One thing is for sure that we are a proud nation who have not given up hope of freedom for the past 400 years. Any other appeasing people who are easily swayed by niceties showered upon them by the occupiers would have been Indianised long time ago. But we have still have the flame of freedom burning in our hearts and minds and that proves we are a proud people. We demand our freedom; we are not requesting it.
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LiberalM
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:34 pm

@chinaar,

Stop the bloodshed in Kashmir Valley ? Absolutely. But getting the UN to do it ? Not going to happen.

The UN is not a super-government that has its own independent mind. Its "mind" if we can call it that is made by jockeying (both subtle and overt) of big powers. If all of those big powers want to do X then UN will do X. If one of those big powers does not want X done, then X will not be done.

UN ceased to be an idealistic band-aid for international disputes in the year of its founding. Ever since that time, it has been nothing but a barely concealed forum for what underneath is a pure power play or realpolitik.

Furthermore, the UN simply does not have the resources to patrol the entire J&K's borders and maintain internal security in the entire territory and that too for ten years. The largest contributors to UN peacekeeping forces are (unfortunately) Bangladesh, Pakistan, and India each with nearly 10000 troops. The US has less than 20 troops wearing blue helmets. A quarter of the UN's budget is paid for by the US and the US Congress keeps close tabs on where that money goes (after the Iraq Oil corruption scandal in the UN).

Your best bet to reduce the bloodshed, I maintain, is to directly go to the Indian Civil Society (not the Indian Government but directly addressing the large swathes of progressive Indian middle classes). Why not just go to all parts of India and tell them what you feel in a non-confrontational way ? I am sure they'll listen. Just my view.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Chinaar wrote:

What do you think makes a 70 year old woman lift stones and throw at your army.

Chinaar,

I hope you do realize that bringing emotions into an already bad situation will make thinks worse. Emotions when used the right way will make people do a lot of good things, but when used in the wrong way will inflame public sentiments, cause people to take law into their own hands, lead to rioting, disruption of normal life, and casualties. This in turn causes more emotional outbursts which leads to more violence and sooner or later we get into a never-ending vicious cycle. Ultimately a time comes when people are so used to fighting each other that no one is able to justify why exactly they are fighting each other. There are better ways, which require better leadership, to go about doing things instead of inflaming passions through the use of emotions.

So to your open-ended question regarding what could make a 70 year old women throw stones at "my" army, I can only guess that it is 1) pre-1989 alienation that Kashmir Valley experienced through botched elections combined with 2) senseless separatist violence that has gripped the valley since 1989 as a result of Pakistani support which lead to 3) heavy-handed (and sometimes unjustified) use of force by paramilitary forces. Any "normal" person will loose sanity in such a situation, it takes leadership to get out of such a mess which in my opinion is sadly missing in Kashmir valley.
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Jehangir
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PostSubject: Missing Hated in   Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:19 pm

Hi, Hated in.
It seems u have a lot of venomous ideas regarding Kashmir and Kashmiris. I noticed that ur post are missing in the videos of Brutality perpeteuated by Indian Occupying Forces. I was hoping that u will have some words of advice for ur brave soldiers who it seems are murdering the Gandhian principles on every day basis. Plz do send them some words on how to be more brutal on unarmed protestors coz it seems u can only think hatred, write hatred and advice hatred when it comes to Kashmir.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:15 pm

Jehangir wrote:
Hi, Hated in.
It seems u have a lot of venomous ideas regarding Kashmir and Kashmiris. I noticed that ur post are missing in the videos of Brutality perpeteuated by Indian Occupying Forces. I was hoping that u will have some words of advice for ur brave soldiers who it seems are murdering the Gandhian principles on every day basis. Plz do send them some words on how to be more brutal on unarmed protestors coz it seems u can only think hatred, write hatred and advice hatred when it comes to Kashmir.

I am not here to debate sarcasm and innuendos and will be ignoring any such posts. Thank you.
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Let Kashmiris decide   Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:53 pm

@Liberalmarathi

Thank you liberalmarathi, Going to all the peaceloving and just people of the world including (especially) India is a good option. I do not know if they will listen but there is no harm in trying and so I am requesting you as a human being to please tell all your co-citizens about our plight and the injustices being perpetrated upon us Cool .

Take care.
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mir
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:14 pm

Quote :
it takes leadership to get out of such a mess which in my opinion is sadly missing in Kashmir valley.

Just get out of Kashmir and we'll figure out for ourselves whether we have leadership or not in Kashmir. No one made you incharge to decide about our leadership here. When your impoverished nation is able to feed the starving people of your own country then you can bother about giving leadership lectures to the rest of the world. Your country is a failure and we dont wnat anything to do with you. Just get out of Kashmir and let us figure out our own well beinng.
You Indians are pathetic (hindutva people, the Indian army, and the Indian governemtn - not the good indians like arundhati roy, and suhjatha the other poster)
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Watch this video guys   Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:47 pm



See how the World is making fun of both Pakistan and India in a humourously satirical way.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:49 pm

mir wrote:

Just get out of Kashmir

No you get out. lol! lol!
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:54 pm

mir wrote:

Just get out of Kashmir and ...

Next time try saying something like "Yes/No, I (don't) agree that leadership in Kashmir Valley has failed ... there has been a failure of leadership in Kashmir by successive national governments also." There are lot of things that can be said to disarm/resolve the issue before you burst out in flames.
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Jehangir
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PostSubject: Three Principles of GANDHI   Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:26 pm

Hi Hated.in
Touche arent you. Embarassed This is exactly the reponse that we expected from a misinformed Indian like you. The videos speak of extreme brutalities commited by these UNIFORMED TERRORIST but u chose to remain a mute spectator coz ur so called national interests come before anything. When it comes to atrocties commited by forces u are quick to take refuge in sayings of Gandhi.
1. Hear No complaints about indian forces atrocities in Kashmir.
2. See no atrocities commited by forces in Kashmir
3. Speak nothing about the atrocities by forces in Kashmir.
The best way for u to really understand the feelings of Kashmiris and the actual scenario is to come here and live with common people. Feel the hurt that we have to undergo at every bunker when we r stopped. Feel the pain when we see mangled bodies of young children butchered by these Dakoos from chambal Ghati. Feel the fear when an unmarked Gypsy stops near u. Let us see for how many days u can tolerate such emotional upsets.
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PostSubject: Observations about Hated.in   Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:05 pm

HI, HATED IN AND JEHANGIR
Probably it stands for hated.indian. I feel that Jehangir has analysed you nicely. Your reluctance to get drawn into the debate regarding the Atrocities committed by security forces does potray your inner self. I feel that it is time you shed all your wrong notions about india and its forces and its claim on Kashmir. Think like a common unbaised person and see the reality and maybe your posts will not evoke such harsh criticism.
Dear Jehangir. Great observations Bro and especially the Embarassed . Your other post about Jammu encounter was precise.
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Let the Kashmiris decide   Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:56 pm

@ Analyst and Jehangir,

Guys read my replies to hated-indian on the impoverished Indians post, I simply had a ball with this person the other day and thats how we should treat people like hated-Indian who understand neither reason nor evidence. Very Happy
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Jehangir
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PostSubject: @Chinaar   Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:48 pm

Read the posts. God U r getting up his skin. Seems he has gone quite all of a sudden. This will be a sad coz some of his posts made lot of sense.
@Analyst.
Thanks for the comment regarding te Jammu Encounter. It was published br Rising Kashmir also.
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: CHINA ... ??   Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:03 am

Guys,

I have posted similar post in another thread, but i believe its worth repeating here ...

..

[Deleted by moderator: multiple posts on different threads. Wikipedia links not allowed]
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Essay-wr
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:34 am

Hey everyone
I am an Indian, and although I agree that the best result would be for Kashmir to get to decide on their own, it's not a "feasible" solution as you all claim. The UN ruled that a plebiscite should be held, what, 60 years ago? Come on people, it still hasn't happened. And it's unlikely to ever happen.
India claims a right to Kashmir under the Accession. Pakistan claims a right to Kashmir because of the Muslim majority. But even if Pakistan and India can come to an understanding about these religious issues, both will still hold on to their stake of Kashmir to try and profit from Kashmir's economic factors, like tourism - when militants aren't trying to blow everyone up, at least.
As great as it would be for Kashmir to get a say in this matter, the fact is that India and Pakistan are the ones with the power. In this world, whoevers strongest will win, and that will definitely not be Kashmir. Either India will get Kashmir, or Pakistan, or it will remain divided, but there is next to no "feasible" chance that Kashmir will be given independance.
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PostSubject: ground reality   Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:50 pm

In any case, the views (and hatred) of 'kashmiris' towards any thing that is Indian is represented by not more than 10 bloggers on this site. Therefore these 10 do not get the right of being considered the ' voice of kashmiris'. I know hundereds of kashmiris who do not subscribe to the views put forth by them. One clear message, and the real message that ordinary kashmiris are giving at the level where it matters, i.e. the GROUND LEVEL ) is that they have no problems in accepting the indian democracy and the elections held by them. Despite the most fervent dictat of the separatists in the kashmir valley, the percent polling seems to increase by every phase. Now our kashmiri friends in this forum may cook up a plethora of lame duck reasons to rebutt the polling figures, but that is understandable because they have been in a constant state of denial for ages. But it will be sensible on their part to open their eyes to reality..... the way india and now the world sees it vis a vis kashmir.
By the same token, let them not forget basic demographic facts about Jammu and Kashmir. The separatist viewpoint is nor shared by people of either Jammu or Ladakh. So they should not think they are representing the whole of Jammu & Kashmir and Ladakh because these two regions are proud to be indian, with or without the oft repeated and oft orchestrated connotations and effect of the "Instrument of Accession'. Let it be clear once and for all.
If our feedom seeking friends here indeed want that for the 'kashmir valley', then they indeed can and at least I have no problems with that. every one has a right to vent their feelings in a civilised society.
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Ants
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PostSubject: Re: Let Kashmiris decide what they want and stop the blood-shed   Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:07 am

Quote :
I know hundereds of kashmiris who do not subscribe to the views put forth by them. One clear message, and the real message that ordinary kashmiris are giving at the level where it matters, i.e. the GROUND LEVEL ) is that they have no problems in accepting the indian democracy and the elections held by them. Despite the most fervent dictat of the separatists in the kashmir valley, the percent polling seems to increase by every phase

And is that why there isnt a SINGLE Kashmiri muslim on this "Anonymous" forum sharing your views??

You talk non-sense
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