Selling our sovereignty to the "Impoverished" Indians

LiberalM wrote:

Residents of Kashmir Valley are de-facto Indian citizens (and I think this is all what hated-in appears to have meant, correct me if I am wrong hated-in). People of India further believe that residents of Kashmir Valley are de-jure citizens of India as well. People of Kashmir Valley do not think that they are de-jure citizens of India and they have every right to think so.

Yes, I meant de-facto as you very well describe it above :-) . But de-facto or de-jure, they are still citizens and entitled to all benefits, duties, rules, and regulations which includes their right to vote and their right to migrate out of the country and renounce citizenship if they see fit. As far as the land of Kashmir Valley is concerned, they don't have any special moral right on it even if it was their private property.

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As far as the land of Kashmir Valley is concerned, they don't have any special moral right on it even if it was their private property.

Keep your Hindutva ideologies alive and keep halucinating.

LiberalM wrote:

If there were a few people who didn't like staying on with India, then that reasoning (renounce citizenship and leave) would have been alright. But when a significantly large number of them feel that they don't want to have anything to do with India, then we are morally obligated to find a different solution (keeping in mind our security concerns but we are only talking about the moral issues here right now).

We are morally obligated to find a sensible and reasonable solution under which all reasonable parties would be satisfied and live in peace. We have no moral obligation towards self-destructive or unreasonable solutions. At the same time, we also have a moral obligation towards maintaining law-and-order as any government worth its name would do.

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On whether they meet the same fate of POK or not, we don't know that.

Agreed.

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We
cannot deny them their right to go their own way just because (we think, very strongly that) they are heading into an unmitigated human, security, and political disaster.

I think at this point, we are entering into a never-ending existential debate something similar to does a person who does not wish to live have the right to commit suicide. I don't think I have the capacity to discuss that. However, I do know for sure that a person who does not want to commit suicide should not be allowed to commit suicide even by mistake. The latter definitely includes people in Kashmir Valley irrespective of the current mental-asylum state of Kashmir Valley. So if the most likely effect of separation of Kashmir Valley is chaos, then there can
be no separation.

I mentioned this a while back in another context: We, as a country, are well beyond the point of taking frivolous risks, so if everything is telling us that result of separation of Kashmir Valley won't be good either for Kashmir Valley or its residents or the rest of India, then there is no way Kashmir Valley can receive "independence".

Having said that, I don't think what your suggesting is very different from my own position (I don't claim to speak for rest of the country or the government) and that is if and when peace returns to Kashmir Valley there are a lot more options that will open up. However, even if a decision is made to put Kashmir Valley on a path to independence, that decisions cannot be reveled (for various reasons) publicity at least not for now and not for quite a few years until complete normalcy returns.

The commonality between the approach that we have in mind is that and as you mentioned earlier somewhere in your posts 1) there must be peace in Kashmir Valley, 2) India's strategic safety must be guaranteed, plus 3) we must be reasonably assured that Kashmir Valley won't commit suicide after separation.

For 1, all parties need to be convinced that there is no way out (or in) besides peace.For 2, some semblance of "good will", if not friendly relations, need to be developed in the immediate neighborhood, and for 3, Kashmir Valley needs to show leadership and "normal thinking" as
opposed to Gelani's fanatical mindset that was well demonstrated as a result of his participation in a recent chat show on national TV.

From what I can see it will be a long time (at least 25 years and enough time for at least one generation to grow up in peace) when the conditions can be made conducive to allow Kashmir valley to choose. Right now the opposite is happening since we have had one generation
that has grown up under the gun. By that time, if things go well, the whole environment in sub continent will be different and such a choice won't seem threatening to any involved party. Under the best case senario such a choice won't even appear to be significant. Keep in mind
that the world is coming closer not going further except off course the insane elements of this world.

Currently, there might be hostilities with China, but the assurance that we have with China is that we know that they will act responsibly (although to the best of their interest) and at the same time China also knows that we will act responsibly. Hence, they are our largest trading partner. However, at the same time we know that Pakistan won't and does not act responsibly (for their own perception of their best interest) and hence our entire border with
them is fenced. We also know that Kashmir Valley, for various obvious reasons, will commit suicide if it separates anytime soon.

As far as I can tell there is really not much difference in our viewpoints. Change the entire structure of the sub-continent by developing peace and security and independence for Kashmir Valley becomes irrelevant and a non-issue as a result of mutual-linkages that will automatically be formed as a result of peace which and good will which would lead to peace, security, more trade, more mutual linkages, etc. The only group that looses under such a scenario are rabid
fanatics who are hell bent on self destruction, not the people who want a better standard for themselves, and definitely not the people who want to practice their religion in peace while co-existing peacefully with others.

Hope this makes sense.

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Keep your Hindutva ideologies alive and keep halucinating.
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And feel free to renounce citizenship and migrate into the anarchy called POK.

@hated-in

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As far as I can tell there is really not much difference in our viewpoints. Change the entire structure of the sub-continent by developing peace and security and independence for Kashmir Valley becomes irrelevant and a non-issue as a result of mutual-linkages that will automatically be formed as a result of peace which and good will which would lead to peace, security, more trade, more mutual linkages, etc. The only group that looses under such a scenario are rabid
fanatics who are hell bent on self destruction, not the people who want a better standard for themselves, and definitely not the people who want to practice their religion in peace while co-existing peacefully with others.

Hope this makes sense.

It does absolutely. This has been a very enlightening discussion. So thank you.

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The commonality between the approach that we have in mind is that and as you mentioned earlier somewhere in your posts 1) there must be peace in Kashmir Valley, 2) India's strategic safety must be guaranteed, plus 3) we must be reasonably assured that Kashmir Valley won't commit suicide after separation.

And who exactly gets to decide whether KAshmir will be committing suicide when it declares its independence? It appears you are implying that Indians get to decide that seeing that you have occupied our coutnry and see yourselves as our guardian angels (more like prison guards though, but thats the topic of another thread). It would seem prudent that you talk about how India itself is committing suicide by pumping in billions of dollars into its rag-tag military just to hold on to Kashmir, which is suicide because the same money could be spent on your starving millions. As you can see the whole debate comes back to square one. You have a false sense of India's superiority whereas if only you would open your eyes you would see that your progress lies in the old age adage "live and let live peacefully". Just mind your own business, fix your own house, and let your neighbours live peaceffully. And please feed your starving millions first who are dying everyday of hunger and we'll figure out for ourselves whether we will be committing suicide once we declare independence.

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And feel free to renounce citizenship and migrate into the anarchy called POK.

No surprise here reading this comment of yours. Just goes to show the typical mindset of hindutva agents and your ilk. Us leaving Kashmir would be something you will be dreaming for an eternity - because it's never going to happen. As far as your military occupation ending in Kashmir - that is something which is nearing it's end sooner than later; whether Advani beleives it or not. You might not beleive your occupation of Kashmir is ending but then you are detached from reality and make up fantastic stories to please yourself - keep at it; Advani would be proud of you.

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And who exactly gets to decide whether KAshmir will be committing suicide when it declares its independence? It appears you are implying that Indians get to decide that seeing that you have occupied our coutnry and see yourselves as our guardian angels (more like prison guards though, but thats the topic of another thread).

It will actually be your tourists (or lack of) that will decide along with the fact whether Kashmiri Pandits feel safe and secure enough to return an make a life in the valley.

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It would seem prudent that you talk about how India itself is committing suicide by pumping in billions of dollars into its rag-tag military just to hold on to Kashmir, which is suicide because the same money could be spent on your starving millions.

You are referring to "Guns vs. Butter" debate which is pretty much a dead topic in all "sane" regions of the world. See: India, China, Pakistan Defense Expenditure. Apparently your "brother" Pakistan spends a full 20% of its GDP on defense.

it dosent matter tokashmiris whether pakistan spends more than 20% of its GDP on defence but it does matter to india..the crux of the matter is even after watching all the videos in this forum and all the newspaper cuttings and views of kashmiris if someone still has any doubt in mind what kashmiris are going through and what they actually want then it will be difficullt tocome to any conclusion...india is a great might as compared to kashmir no doubt in it and it is using the same might very efficiently...even people in kashmir are fed up of voilence and fed up of counting the number of deaths everyday...the problem with some of the pro-indian writers is that they write more about pakistan and its involvement in kashmir rather than the mistakes india has commited in kashmir and is continuing the same...the problem is not pakistan but policies of india itself...unless and untill the use of force is not stop and people are allowed to have there rights the problem will continue..people here are not concerned about the welfare of kashmiris after there independence but according to me are just trying to continue there debate..let the people decide there fate...advani,vajpayee,zardari,musharaf cannot....

peace wrote:

it dosent matter tokashmiris whether pakistan spends more than 20% of its GDP on defence but it does matter to india..

That was not my point either. I was simply bringing some attention to the classic "Guns vs. Butter" theory along with some facts and figures with specific examples of Pakistan and China to show what is already well known: Democracies like India spend less money on defense (% GDP) as compared to autocratic countries (Pakistan and China).

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the crux of the matter is even after watching all the videos in this forum and all the newspaper cuttings and views of kashmiris if someone still has any doubt in mind what kashmiris are going through

I think most people here do have a good understanding of the relative intensity, scale, and magnitude of human-rights violations in Kashmir Valley. The government itself has not denied such violations even in international forums.

But if you are suggesting that we take CPRF/Police human-rights violations in complete isolation of other factors such as Pakistan sponsored terrorism, general rioting, separatist violence, etc that is a rather far-fetched idea.

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...the problem with some of the pro-indian writers is that they write more about pakistan and its involvement in kashmir rather than the mistakes india has commited in kashmir and is continuing the same...the problem is not pakistan but policies of india itself...

I don't think I have written anything about Pakistan yet beyond one or two isolated sentences however your assertion that "...the problem is not pakistan" is complete nonsense and ridiculous. No sane person would give it any weight. Besides that I have already mentioned elsewhere that part of the problem is a result of alienation of kashmir valley caused by successive government policies.

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unless and untill the use of force is not stop and people are allowed to have there rights the problem will continue..

Well, I guess now that we have taken care of terrorism in Kashmir and Pakistan has gone to hell, its just a matter of convincing everyone that the only option is "peace". Once that happens all the forces will gradually withdraw.

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people here are not concerned about the welfare of kashmiris after there independence but according to me are just trying to continue there debate..let the people decide there fate...advani,vajpayee,zardari,musharaf cannot....

Yes your beloved country Pakistan has already decided its own fate by going down the drain. We are just trying to make sure that the same does not happen to Kashmir Valley. Good luck with Zardari.

I agree to basic human rights, including freedom of speech and tolerance to other's faith etc etc.

To start with I have few question,

1. What is your suggestion for 140 million Indian Muslims .
2. Should we not ask what is our contribution to the nation before asking what has nation done for us?

I have a request .. dont give lengthy answers, please try to concise.

hated-in wrote:

Chin-aar wrote:

The level of the water at Baglihar has to be raised a little to give the turbines a minimal set of water and if the level is raised above a critical point, then Pakistan can take India to an International court of law. These type of Power plants are called RUN OF THE RIVER HYDRO-POWER PLANTS AND NOT DAMS.

Now this is getting boring. If this is actually such a major sore point, please do us all a favor and take over the water ministry in Delhi as quickly as you can and then you, your accountants, and all the dam people can get together and renegotiate the Indus water agreement with Pakistan to your hearts content. I would rather watch bollywood item girls than the height of some dam (oh sorry hyrdo-power plants).

Mr. Chinaar (yes that's you)

Not that the convoluted conspiracy theories running around in your separatist head are any of my concern, but can you please(ly) and kindly tell me who "Saifuddin Soz" is and, Ahem!, where he is from. thank you for your future kind words.

@abc xyz

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1. What is your suggestion for 140 million Indian Muslims .

Nothing. Indian muslims are Indian - they should be faithful to their country.
Kashmiri muslims are not Indian, but Kashmiri, and therefore want independence from India, which is occupying our country.

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2. Should we not ask what is our contribution to the nation before asking what has nation done for us?

yes we ask the same question when it comes to our country of Kashmir. India is not our country.

kilo wrote:

@abc xyz

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1. What is your suggestion for 140 million Indian Muslims .

Nothing. Indian muslims are Indian - they should be faithful to their country.
Kashmiri muslims are not Indian, but Kashmiri, and therefore want independence from India, which is occupying our country.

Is the above statement also true for Muslims from POK, Gilgit, Baluchistan? or its Only true for India?

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2. Should we not ask what is our contribution to the nation before asking what has nation done for us?

yes we ask the same question when it comes to our country of Kashmir. India is not our country.

You Must contribute to Kashmir No doubt it, Kashmir has its Autonomy its own flag, constitution...

ABC_to_XYZ wrote:

kilo wrote:

@abc xyz

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1. What is your suggestion for 140 million Indian Muslims .

Nothing. Indian muslims are Indian - they should be faithful to their country.
Kashmiri muslims are not Indian, but Kashmiri, and therefore want independence from India, which is occupying our country.

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2. Should we not ask what is our contribution to the nation before asking what has nation done for us?

yes we ask the same question when it comes to our country of Kashmir. India is not our country.

Is the above statement also true for Muslims from POK, Gilgit, Baluchistan? or its Only true for India?
How about your struggle for AKasi Chin and Karakoram Tract?>

You Must contribute to Kashmir No doubt it, Kashmir has its Autonomy its own flag, constitution...

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Is the above statement also true for Muslims from POK, Gilgit, Baluchistan? or its Only true for India?

You asked about Indian muslims, how can my statement be true for muslims of Gilgit and Baluchistan? make up your mind about what you want to ask!
If you are asking about the aspirations of the people of Gilgit and Baluchistan, yes they should be given the right to chose their fate on whether they want to join an independent kashmir, remain with pakistan or any other alternative. No one but the people of that region have the right to make that decison.

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How about your struggle for AKasi Chin and Karakoram Tract?>

our freedom struggle is for the Kashmir valley, if after gaining independence, Ladakh wants to join us as an autonomous region of a free Kashmir, we will sit down with the chinese and discuss that. Aksai Chin is the least of our problems. Our struggle is not for territory, but for the freedom of the Kashmiri people.

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You Must contribute to Kashmir No doubt it, Kashmir has its Autonomy its own flag, constitution...

i agree

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Is the above statement also true for Muslims from POK, Gilgit, Baluchistan? or its Only true for India?

You asked about Indian muslims, how can my statement be true for muslims of Gilgit and Baluchistan? make up your mind about what you want to ask!
If you are asking about the aspirations of the people of Gilgit and Baluchistan, yes they should be given the right to chose their fate on whether they want to join an independent kashmir, remain with pakistan or any other alternative. No one but the people of that region have the right to make that decison.

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How about your struggle for AKasi Chin and Karakoram Tract?>

our freedom struggle is for the Kashmir valley, if after gaining independence, Ladakh wants to join us as an autonomous region of a free Kashmir, we will sit down with the chinese and discuss that. Aksai Chin is the least of our problems. Our struggle is not for territory, but for the freedom of the Kashmiri people.

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You Must contribute to Kashmir No doubt it, Kashmir has its Autonomy its own flag, constitution...

i agree

I must say that if you read the newspapers or articles then the your agitation is not portrayed in the way you said.

If I got it right you said its about the Kashmir Valley People Agitation.

But most of the media portrays it like:
1. Its Anti India and Pro Pakistani.
2. Its Muslim specific.
3. Its non-secular and only pro Muslims.

And there are many factors to support the above points.
1. In recent ralleys Most of the slogans where pro pakistani even pro laskar-e-taiba (militant groups)
2. the slogans were for Nijam-e-Mustafa (Rule of Islam i.e. Shariah)


Either it has to be something specific.
1. Kashmir (Including Valley,Jammu,Ladhak, Aksai chin, Gilgit, Baltistan,AJK,Karakoram Tract)
2. Kashmir Valley All People
3. Kashmir Valley Muslim.
4. Kashmir Valley Sunni Muslim.
5. Kashmir Valley Dar-E-Islam or Nizam-E-Mustafa

To summarize:
1) I must say that if there is poll done among all the above points itself, you can find a split vote. (Among all agitators)
2) None of the political parties of the Kashmir or the Valley say it clearly,
3) Hurriyat Parties are clearly pro-pakistani and probably hide the real cause. (I am saying this based on the news article, I have not attended their meetings)

One thing I will like to add here, Everyone in the society and community has his own share of greivences, It may be any colony, any state or district on country,

Its the onus of citizen of a state to make it success or failure, government is just reflection of its own people.

@all moderators.

I see a lot of blank posts on the forum. Please remember to write the reasons why the posts were deleted.
Remember we have to follow the fourm rules in moderating this forum, and the commenters have a right to know why their posts were deleted.

If this is not by any moderators, and is an issue with the forum, please let me know.

Admin

I think referendum which my country promised to you guys is really due. We carry referendum in Kashmir Valley.
I dont think there is any point is wasting our resources on you. We are sick of this 'one way' love from our side. We should let you guys join your dear country pakistan.