Is India an impoverished failed state?

Changing the title of this thread from 'trillion dollar economy indians' to 'impoverished indians' will not change the fact that india is a trillion dollar economy , my kashmiri brothers Kashmiris may find it absolutely painful to accept india's standing in the international arena, despite its shortcomings, but that doesnt chage its position. They may take out time to 'india bash', thay may make it their favourite past time. They may hallucinate by calling it names, and pasting newspaper strips on any thing that demeans india, but fact will remain facts, and their propoganda hardly changes anything.

@ Anon and his facts

Yes brother anon and here are some more facts....

25 % population of a 1.3 billion people below poverty line (source BBC country profiles and CIA World factbook).
Official Indian figures estimate that 27.5% of Indians lived below the national poverty line in 2004-2005. A 2007 report by the state-run National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganised Sector (NCEUS) found that 25% of Indians, or 236 million people, lived on less than 20 rupees per day with most working in "informal labour sector with no job or social security, living in abject poverty."


INDIA IS THE Only country in the Indian sub-continent which has significant problems with each one of its neighbours i.e.

1) Territorial disputes with China....fought a war with China and was defeated miserably.China claims Arunachal Pradesh and parts of Sikkim in entirety.Took over Aksai-Chin from Indian Occupation (One Occupier replaced by another one)
2) Territorial disputes with Pakistan.....Sir creek, Jammu & Kashmir, Has fought 2 major wars and 2 minor wars with Pakistan with no changes in the ground situation. Not even an iota of change.
3) Played with Srilankan politics which resulted in Assasination of Rajiv Gandhi and lot of animosity between the two countries which continues to this day.
4) Increased Hostility towards Nepal with Nepal vociferously propagating to change all its treaties with India while at the same time getting closer to China.
5) Complete hostility towards Burma with minimal diplomatic exchanges.
6) Increased Hostility towards Bangladesh, A country India created to weaken Pakistan but it has come back to haunt it in an even bigger way. History is a cruel teacher and people living in glass houses should never throw stones.
7) Bhutan increasing its association with China with each passing day/month and year.

NO other country in South Asia is so alienated from its Neighbours as India.

Domestic problems;
1) 25 % below poverty line as already stated amounting to hundreds of millions of people.
2) Communal killings of minorities almost every year undermining its secular credentials. Right now as we speak its Karnataka. Yesterday it was Orissa. I won't even talk of the barbaric acts perpetrated upon Muslim Indians.
3) Caste and regional tensions continue to haunt Indian politics, sometimes threatening its long-standing democratic ethos. Maharashtra/ Tamil nadu/Karnataka/Bihar etc etc etc.
4)Naxalism in states like Orissa, Bihar, Andra Pradesh, Chattisgarh and Jharkhand at its peak with support coming from training camps in maoist Nepal.
5) Insurgency in the North-Eastern states.
6) Ranked at number 115 out of the odd 155 countries in terms of over all corruption.
7) Gross Human rights violations against its citizens especially in the Indian Occupied Kashmir (Source: OHCHR, HRW, Amnesty International)
Corrupt police services driven with a communal bent of mind leading to staged encounter killings of innocent people (best example encounter specialist of Modhi).
9) A country where parties like BJP are elected to power on the basis of Casteism and Muslim Bashing.


Brother Anon, its true that your country is developing but the world has seen development from Greenland to the South-pole. A country like Malaysia which got its independence years after India will be declared a developed Nation by 2010. So, what are you boasting about. Even Antarctica has a modern telephone exchange and electricity.

We Kashmiris know you are a trillion dollar economy but of what use is that money to us when we will be facing all the above problems if we make an ominous error and decide to be a part of India.

Which sane individual would knowingly step into a catastrophy and be a part of a huge British created problem i.e. India.

Facts are that if you leave Jammu & Kashmir, India will be a richer nation with so much less to spend on its Military expenses and therefore will be able to tackle all its other problems in a holistic manner.

AND Before you start bashing Muslims for everything, remember CHINA/Srilanka/BURMA/Nepal are not Muslim countries and yet still treat you with animosity.

SO DREAM ON BROTHER......ITS GOOD TO DREAM BUT TRUST ME, WE KASHMIRIS STOPPED DREAMING IN 1953 WHEN YOUR DUBIOUS GOVERNMENT DISSOLVED OUR PARLIAMENT AND ARRESTED OUR PRIME MINISTER.

Well if anyone was wondering, I am the one who split these topics and started this thread. The reason is that we need to do a careful analysis whether India is infact a paper-tiger which is fooling it's gullible populace in beleiving that it is an economic power, or that it is one of the most impoverished nations on this planet. The facts show us otherwise. With a burgeoning population most of which will overtake all other countries to have the highest population in the world, will India be able to spend a sizeable amount of its GDP on military misadventures such as Kashmir, or does common sense dictate that it spend its valuable revenues on feeding its own starving population. On this thread I will allow, and I hope other moderators will also, all links or information we can gather about the real state of India's economy and state of its citizens.

Let's settle this debate once and for all and hope it will open the eyes of our Indian friends on this forum.

@chinaar,

Anon was right then after all. It is India-bashing time again at the forum . I have no idea how this is supposed to move the dialogue forward (or how even to have a dialogue in the first place). Emotional outbursts delivered in an impetuous, confrontational, and breathless manner don't help your cause of freedom one bit. Your intended audience (us impoverished Indians) will at best ignore the drivel or at worst just move on to better things in life (like hunting for our next meal), leaving you with like-minded people. And then you and them will get sick of saying the same things over and over again to the same group of like-minded people. You get this one window to meet and talk and converse with ordinary Indians and this is what you do: bash them and their country.

A little sanity helps everyone. China is a totalitarian state that executes more people than the rest of the world combined every year. Burma is another military-led dictatorship that has imprisoned its duly elected leader for last many years. Pakistan is a theocratic chaos that has hanged one elected prime-minister, and killed another one in a melee and has had un-elected military rulers ruling it for more than half its existence. Most Indians are glad that India is not exactly on friendly terms with these countries. Now, that, is a view that you won't get to hear in your group of like-minded people.

@reporter,

My earlier post was written before the thread was split and the context of this thread was changed from "india bashing" to "analysis of whether India is a failed state"

@Reporter, Chinar:

I am honestly surprised. who is anyone to discuss and stamp a tag on india as 'impoverished' or 'developed' or whatever? i'd like to know why you need links and facts and start an endless debate to decide 'once for all', on what??
in the end my guess is, whatever you say would simply be a 'desperate' attempt to do some india-bashing and feel good about it. i think its becoming quite ridiculous.
do you have any idea what running a country as big as india is? do you have any idea what governing a billion people speaking 33 different languages and more than 2000 dialects is? do you have any idea what living with such diversity is? you and I can't even fathom india's culture and history, let alone you decide what it should be tagged. talk whats practical and don't stoop low.
yes, there is a lot, really a lot for us to achieve to really be called a power to reckon with in the world. and it is completely understandable by any sane individual, nobody expects a country like ours to become a superpower overnight. but trashing its negatives and failures will not get you anywhere folks. if your sole intention is to provoke peoples wits, well, i'd be forced to consider it your lack of ideas and a sign of desperation and nothing else.
just like you bluntly can ask people not to bother about how kashmir can manage its economy and so on, why bother discussing india's problems as well, be fair.
i think you are lowering the forum's standards and yourself and nothing else.

@T and LiberalMarathi

We are only stating hard facts and most of these data are from reputed sources. however if any Indian feels bad or disenchanted, our intention is not to do that but to make Kashmiris and Indians realise what we are contemplating i.e. if we Kashmiris ever do vote for India. As LiberalMarathi always puts it, dialogue is the best way forward but we can't always just look at only one side of the so called enchanting Trillion dollar economy....we have to sift through the shades of grey too and when we reach the other side by climbing over the sim of the coin......reality may bite us even harder than how it is biting us today.

Most of the Indian Lovers here have told us how bad China is or how evil Pakistan is and yet we have never questioned their sources or integrity.

Majority of the Indians have been telling us for 60 years now how glorious it would be for Kashmiris to be a part of a British created entity called India.

So what is wrong if we discuss India and its state of affairs, after all if we have to eventually integrate with India as the Indians want then whats wrong in debating the issue of what India actually is.

So brothers T and LiberalMarathi, stop feeling bad about basic concrete facts.

By discussing these issues which face trouble-torn India today, we may come to some kind of common ground and that may lead to some new ideas about how to give 2 square meals a day to 236 million Indians.

@everyone,

It seems that all the other threads the one common reasoning that our Indian friends seem to keep harping about is that Kashmiris cannot seem to comprehend what they are missing by not being of the "Indian Dream". While the rest of the world including Kashmiris happen to be aware of the fact that there is no such thing and therefore it is open to debate whether there is something about India's economic situation that we are unaware of. This thread will give an opportunity to Kashmiris to see for themselves what Indias standing in the world is, so my Indian friends should not be afraid it will burst their bubble of India's superiority, and expose the starving millions that India's government is ignoring while spending their meagre resources on their misadventures in Kashmir.

A debate is just that - discussing all things even though they might expose the truth, which is not always pretty.

You guys brought this up yourself, by talking about Indias false economy, so be ready to debate this issue and stop whining that it is India bashing.

@Liberal Marathi

A little sanity helps everyone. China is a totalitarian state that executes more people than the rest of the world combined every year. Burma is another military-led dictatorship that has imprisoned its duly elected leader for last many years. Pakistan is a theocratic chaos that has hanged one elected prime-minister, and killed another one in a melee and has had un-elected military rulers ruling it for more than half its existence. Most Indians are glad that India is not exactly on friendly terms with these countries. Now, that, is a view that you won't get to hear in your group of like-minded people".

1) Can you please give us a link to a credible source which says that China executes more people than the rest of the world put together? India has killed more than a 100,000 in Kashmir only and I am not even counting the Muslims, Christians, dalits, Tribals or the people killed in the north-east....however to cite an example just Gujarat created a 3000 plus official fatalities amongst Muslims recently. I find this statement of yours about China both Ludicrous and hypocritical.

2) Atleast Burma like India has not imprisoned 7.2 million people (Read Kashmiris) by employing a million of its 1.1 million strong army and creating the most densely militarized zone in the world. Yes my friend you have gone way beyond the Burmese as you have imprisoned a whole country and continue to hold us Kashmiris to ransom.

3) India went a step further and using its Indian/Hindutva agents killed one of the greatest leaders the world has ever seen i.e. Mohandas karamchand Gandhi so stop blaming Pakistan for all your woes and yes haven't the Hindu Chauvinists ruled India for all of its existence much like the Pakistan military albeit in a more intelligent way. Which Indian politician in India can afford to speak against the Hindu Elite. So we find no difference between the pakistan army or the Hindu fundamentalists in India who govern all of its policies under the garb of democracy and secularism.

4) Not being friendly with any one of your neighbouring countries is not good for India, I mean even a super power like USA finds it of utmost importance to be friendly with its immediate neighbours like Canada/Mexico and most of its tiny carribbean neighbours except Cuba . Sanity would demand that India should become more friendly with all its neighbours and thus divert essential funds to poverty eradication rather than being spent on defense/intelligence etc. And if you are still happy about not being friendly with your neighbours, then for us Kashmiris who are surrounded by 4 different countries its a cause for major concern as that means by integrating with India we are inviting trouble from 4 of our immediate neighbours...So we should contemplate this seriously.

Quote :

25 % population of a 1.3 billion people below poverty line (source BBC country profiles and CIA World factbook).

That seems to be correct. But where do you see the inconsistency in the ‘trillion dollar economy of india statement’?? Are you confusing ‘economy’ with GDP (per capita)? Ok, so what if India’s 25% lives below poverty line? Would you call Egypt (26.6% below poverty line), France (7%), Israel (21%), South Korea (15%), Netherlands (10%), Romania (25%), Spain (20%), Turkey (20%), Ukraine(37%), U.K. (14%) etc etc as ‘impoverished’ by any means? Why don’t you, my friend be positive for once and see the other perspective --- 75% of 1.3 Billion are not poor! And this 75% has more heads than the individual populations of 90% countries in the world!! Anyways, this figure has been slowly decreasing over the years, as the indian economic powerhouse wakes up to join the big league. Yes, everybody knows that we started from scratch, the same way every one knows now that we have arrived Be grateful at least that yours is a zero poverty State, where people don’t have to sleep on the roads at night because they don’t have enough money to build their house. Spare a thought for them as they might just have lost out on life because the indian government was busy offering economic packages to the ‘alienated

Quote :

INDIA IS THE Only country in the Indian sub-continent which has significant problems with each one of its neighbours ’.

Big countries have big issues. These are power games my friend, your likes or dislikes don’t matter, because you are a small fry in the cauldron. Moreover, India is not going to change its foreign policy because a brother in kashmir doesn’t like it. So relax.

Quote :

We Kashmiris know you are a trillion dollar economy but of what use is that money to us when we will be facing all the above problems if we make an ominous error and decide to be a part of India.

Well, I don’t think I would would actually want you to be a part of India, though I doubt if India will ever let go of its rightful territory. You all can dream of living in a perfect world and keep looking for it till it becomes a folk lore that you can repeat to people by the river Jhelum. And no, we don’t need to bash muslims for everything as you asuggest,---- we just know, and that’s enough. No country needs people who only know how to bleed it and eat out of it at the same time. No, we certainly dont need you.

@anon

India
Population: 1,147,995,904 (July 2008 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP): $2,700 (2007 est.)
Population below poverty line: 25% (2007 est.) [Approx: 250 Million!! Almost all of these 250 million are born and bred Indians with very few immigrants!!]
Economic aid - recipient: $1.724 billion (2005)

Turkey
Population: 71,892,808 (July 2008 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP): $12,900 (2007 est.)
Population below poverty line: 20% (2002) [Approx 14 Million Mostly immigrants from south asian countries such as India and also Africa]

France
Population: total: 64,057,792
note: 62,150,775 in metropolitan France (July 2008 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP): $33,200 (2007 est.)
Population below poverty line: 6.2% (2004) [Approx 4 million, mostly immigrants from south asian countries such as India and Africa]
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $10.6 billion (2006)

Egypt
Population: 81,713,520 (July 2008 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP): $5,500 (2007 est.)
Population below poverty line: 20% (2005 est.) [Approx 14 million, many of them African immigrants]

So as we can see 250 million Indians are unable to feed themselves before going to bed at night! They are literally starving while India arms itself to the teeth while occupying Kashmir.

250 Million starving Indians!! Thats is 4 times the whole population of France. Twice the whole population of the US. And six times the whole population of Canada!!

Yes, for sure, India is some economic giant!!
Feed your starving population first and then compare your impoversihed country with the other ones that you mentioned.

Two monologues does not a dialogue make.

A dialogue does not happen with closed ears and closed eyes.

The wounds of Kashmir due to the insurgency of the past 20 years are going to take at least a couple of generations to heal assuming there is relative peace from now on and Kashmiris and Indians learn to live with each other peacefully.

Until that time, my Indian friends, this is what we are going to see - an outpouring of hatred and bitterness of a lost generation that hates our guts for just being Indian. No amount of goodwill and empathy from any of us is going to make a whit of a difference to what some Kashmiris feel about us.

If this continues, in another generation or two, Indian kids will start hating the guts of Kashmiris like they do of the Pakistanis and the cycle of violence in South Asia will continue to the detriment of us all.

Carry on guys.

@anon

[quote]That seems to be correct. But where do you see the inconsistency in the ‘trillion dollar economy of india statement’?? Are you confusing ‘economy’ with GDP (per capita)? Ok, so what if India’s 25% lives below poverty line? Would you call Egypt (26.6% below poverty line), France (7%), Israel (21%), South Korea (15%), Netherlands (10%), Romania (25%), Spain (20%), Turkey (20%), Ukraine(37%), U.K. (14%) etc etc as ‘impoverished’ by any means? Why don’t you, my friend be positive for once and see the other perspective --- 75% of 1.3 Billion are not poor! And this 75% has more heads than the individual populations of 90% countries in the world!! Anyways, this figure has been slowly decreasing over the years, as the indian economic powerhouse wakes up to join the big league. Yes, everybody knows that we started from scratch, the same way every one knows now that we have arrived Be grateful at least that yours is a zero poverty State, where people don’t have to sleep on the roads at night because they don’t have enough money to build their house. Spare a thought for them as they might just have lost out on life because the indian government was busy offering economic packages to the ‘alienated

For the umpteenth time buddy, we don't want your packages or BRIBES....just leave us alone and make the rest of your 25 % come above poverty line. The devil lies in the detail but for your kind information India is still considered a 3rd world country and has by no means achieved a developed nation status. And ours is a zero poverty state because of our small population i.e. enough land and means for all our citizens. Jammu & Kashmir has a population density of approx 2 people per square kilometre whereas a state like UP has a population density of 400 people per square kilometre and thats your answer....not stupid economic packages.

Quote :

Big countries have big issues. These are power games my friend, your likes or dislikes don’t matter, because you are a small fry in the cauldron. Moreover, India is not going to change its foreign policy because a brother in kashmir doesn’t like it. So relax.

Agreed we are small fry, but a big country like yours have not been able to digest this small fry even after 60 years of forcible occupation. On a saner note, this small fry is bleeding your economy miserably....so instead of feeding your people and taking care of all your other internal problems, you choose to continue killing us at the expense of starving your population...wow....u guys are unique.

Well, I don’t think I would would actually want you to be a part of India, though I doubt if India will ever let go of its rightful territory. You all can dream of living in a perfect world and keep looking for it till it becomes a folk lore that you can repeat to people by the river Jhelum. And no, we don’t need to bash muslims for everything as you asuggest,---- we just know, and that’s enough. No country needs people who only know how to bleed it and eat out of it at the same time. No, we certainly dont need you.

Talk about hypocrisy and you Indians are the champions....I mean now you are talking....Who's bleeding who is not even debatable here? Jammu & Kashmir was not, is not and will never be Indias rightful territory (Source UNO/BBC Country profiles/CIA worldfactbook) unless people of J&K vote for integration into the Indian Union. In case you want our freedom struggle to become a folklore, then just Nuke us into oblivion and send in your co-citizens to live on the banks of Jhelum and sing Indian praises of a QUADRILLION DOLLAR ECONOMY.

@Liberalmarathi

Quote :

Until that time, my Indian friends, this is what we are going to see - an outpouring of hatred and bitterness of a lost generation that hates our guts for just being Indian. No amount of goodwill and empathy from any of us is going to make a whit of a difference to what some Kashmiris feel about us.

HA HA HA!!!FOLKS The following is an indicator of Indian empathy and goodwill towards us Kashmiris:

100,000 dead
45,000 orphans
10,000 missing
7,000 rapes
14,000 jailed and still awaiting trials
23,000 widows
5000 (at last count)unmarked mass graves
(Population of Kashmir-approx 7-8 million)

At this rate, you will soon change the meaning of empathy and goodwill in all the english dictionaries and yes despite all the love and affection shown towards us, We don't hate you buddy as We have never done what you have as at the end of the day, we are human beings and not animals like you guys. Save your actual goodwill and empathy for your 25% below poverty line population and millions of Naxal influenced areas cause they need it more than us.

If this continues, in another generation or two, Indian kids will start hating the guts of Kashmiris like they do of the Pakistanis and the cycle of violence in South Asia will continue to the detriment of us all.

Bro we are only a small fry, how will killing us or imprisoning us further affect you in any way whatsoever. However, I repeat that you go through my first post on this blog with a clear mind and see how much you can do for the betterment of India by letting this small fry (which is of no consequence to you ) go and forge its own destiny.

Further to my topics on the impoverishment of Indians, following are some concise excerpts from UN reports on India.

Quote :

Despite its many noteworthy achievements, the country faces several challenges. The
economy is decelerating, the incidence of unemployment on current daily basis is high, there is
widespread undernourishment, the infant mortality rate has been stagnating, electricity is not
available to 60% of rural and 20% of urban households, the environment has been a large number
of rural and even many urban households remain unelectrified, deteriorating and gender
inequality persists. A key problem of the Indian economy is the high fiscal deficit at both the
central and state levels

Quote :

It has made
some impressive progress in the area of human development. And yet, it is home to nearly 260
million of the world’s poorest. Despite improvements in its human development indicators, it
ranks 115th out of 162 countries on UNDP’s human development index. India thus offers a
fascinating opportunity to learn what has worked, what has not and why.

Quote :

The economy is currently in a decelerating phase. Restoring its momentum,
particularly in the context of the global slow down, is one of the key tasks7. The incidence of
unemployment on Current Daily Status basis is relatively high at over 7%. More than half the
children in 1-5 age group in rural areas are undernourished, with the girl children suffering even
more severe malnutrition. For the last several years infant mortality rate has stagnated at 72 per
1000. About 60 percent of rural and 20 percent of urban households do not have electricity.
Urban environment has deteriorated and the number of slum dwellers has been increasing. Air,
river and water pollution has adversely affected quality of life of the urban poor. Land and forest
degradation in rural areas and over-exploitation of ground water have reached disturbing levels.
India has 18% of the world population today, 15% of its livestock but only 2% of the world's
geographical area, 1% of the world's forest area, 0.5% of the world's pasture lands, and 0.08 ha
per capita availability of forest as opposed to the world average of 0.8 ha. Gender inequality
persists and women fare much worse than men on practically all indicators of human
development. One of the principal challenges faced by India is the persistence of disparities
among states, within states, between rural and urban areas, and across communities.

Quote :

Food Security Programme
With a total budget of US $ 10.166 million the programme has been designed to pilot
holistic strategies and participatory approaches for food security and poverty alleviation at
the national, community, and household levels, focusing specially on the role of women.
The programme comprises five major sub-programmes, three of which relate to
empowerment of women and are being implemented in Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and Uttar
Pradesh; the fourth relates to hybrid rice production and the fifth to maize production. There
is no independent evaluation of this programme. However, according to the inputs furnished
by UNDP Country Office in Andhra Pradesh, womens’ groups and NGOs are campaigning
to support the registration of land ownership in the name of men and women jointly. In
Orissa, womens’ groups are managing an alternative community distribution system through
the purchase and storage of buffer stocks of food grains, thus breaking the cycle of
indebtedness in which the population finds itself trapped.

Quote :

development may not be effective. In a cluster of leather workers, which had
profited from UNDP-assisted leather programme, beneficiaries pointed out that their incremental
incomes were being consumed by medical expenses. It was obvious to the team that elementary
education among the beneficiaries will also enhance their capacity to earn, and greater sensitivity
towards gender in the programme will enable women to share the benefits. There are many other
problems, which encounter the programme managers in the field, like lack of sanitation, absence
of community involvement, poor housing, absence of electrification and scarcity of water.
Attention to all of them will undoubtedly enhance the effectiveness of the leather development
programme and many other such interventions. This report itself argues that UNDP should adopt
a holistic and integrated as against a compartmentalized approach to development

Quote :

Monitorable Targets for the Tenth Plan and Beyond
• Reduction of poverty ratio by 5 percentage points by 2007 and by 15 percentage
points by 2012;
• Providing gainful high-quality employment to the addition to the labour force
over the Tenth Plan period;
• All children in school by 2003; all children to complete 5 years of schooling by
2007;
• Reduction in gender gaps in literacy and wage rates by atleast 50 percent by 2007;
• Reduction in the decadal rate of population growth between 2001 and 2011 to
16.2 percent;
• Increase in Literacy rate to 75 percent within the Plan period;
• Reduction in infact mortalilty rate (IMR) to 45 per 1000 live births by 2007 and to
28 by 2012;
• Reduction of Maternal mortality ratio (MMR) to 2 per 100 live births by 2007 and
1 by 2012;
• Increase in forest and and tree cover to 25 percent by 2007 and 33 percent by
2012;
• All villages to have sustained access to potable drinking water within the Plan
period;
• Cleaning of major polluted rivers by 2007 and other notified stretches by 2012.

SO YOU SEE GUYS, HOW MUCH YOU CAN DO WITH ALL THOSE TRILLIONS THAT YOU HAVE........

I would like to invite all Humane people irrespective of what region they come from to actively contribute to how we can improve the pathetic living standards of more than 236 million people in INDIA.

Regards

Child nutrition campaign 'fails'

The PM's criticisms are 'surprisingly strong'
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has warned that malnutrition rates for children in his country remain among the highest in the world.
In a strongly-worded letter sent to state chief ministers, Mr Singh said that a massive programme to improve health and nutrition had failed.

The letter said that the programme had been "poorly implemented".

A UN report in May said that half of the world's under-nourished children live in South Asia, with most in India.

'No substantial improvement'

The prime minister said that the country's Integrated Child Development Services (ICDS) scheme had not sufficiently dented child malnourishment levels.

"There is strong evidence that the programme has not led to any substantial improvement in the nutritional status of children under six," Mr Singh said, urging strong action.




'Hunger critical' in South Asia

Some 50 million children aged six and below are supposed to be covered under the 45bn-rupee ($1bn) ICDS scheme.

"Our prevalent rate of under-nutrition in the 0-6 age group remains one of the highest in the world," Mr Singh said.

"These are startling figures and the situation calls for urgent action."

A further 110m children in the 0-6 age group remain outside the purview of the ICDS programme, which was meant to expand gradually.

Last year the UN children's agency, Unicef, said that the average malnutrition rate in some Indian states - such as densely populated Uttar Pradesh - was 40%.

That is higher than sub-Saharan Africa where it is around 30%, Unicef said.

Constantly marred

Correspondents say that the criticisms in the prime minister's letter were surprisingly strong.

A recent health ministry survey said that the number of undernourished children below the age of three had actually risen in some states since the late 1990s, despite higher incomes and rapid economic growth.


A malnourished child at a health centre in India

The ICDS scheme was established in 1975, and is one of the biggest childcare efforts in the world, providing immunisations, supplementary food and medical check-ups for pregnant women.

The scheme is implemented by thousands of state-funded community workers in poor, rural areas with limited or no medical facilities.

Correspondents say that efforts to provide nutritious food to children have been constantly marred by corruption in which food intended for the poor is stolen or sold to other people.

Economists say that India's economy has grown at over 8% over the past three years and is expected to expand close to 9% in the fiscal year ending March 2007.

But despite the new-found prosperity of the few, close to 300m Indians still live on less than $1 (44 rupees) a day.

Reporter wrote:

Well if anyone was wondering, I am the one who split these topics and started this thread.

Wow! you have truly advanced the cause of Kashmir Valley independence single-handedly.

We all know about india's problems my friend, but I thought we were talking about India's economy here. I can also copy and paste some very nice reports about how india is moving up the ladder on the economic front, but I don't find the necessity to, mainly because we know where we are headed and very happy with it. I pity you because you don't even know where you are headed, and by your outbursts anyone can see that you all are one confused lot. Its basically your frustration showing everywhere on these discission threads. You seem scandalised by the system, while at the same time forget that you too have been a part of it. You talk about racism and communalism when you have systematically caused the exodus of one whole community from the kashmir valley. You talk about corruption, but seem to ignore that your corruption standards ranked 2nd in the whole of india; You talk about 100,000 deaths but but somehow blackout how many deaths out of those occured due to your people killing your people , killed killers a.k.a. gun weilding militants by forces, informers killed by militants, people killed by indiscriminate grenades which missed the target; released militants killed by active militants; ikhwanis killed by militants; political workers and their familieskilled by militants; militants killed by militants to claim their ex-gracia from pak in pok; policemen and their families killed by militants; ... and the list goes on. And while you would, as it is in your nature, put the blame on someone else for all these deaths, not once will you accept that you brought it all on yourself. Sorry, but your whining on the issue has no takers.

I am amused that you can think of speaking on behalf of the whole J&K State. And it is also interesting to note that two main regions of the state , Jammu and Ladakh, don't share your bent of mind. Hats off to them for being true indians and sustaining the onslaughts of your particular type of ideology all these years. The fact that people from these regions still sacrifice their lives for the tricolor lends credibility to india's stand on the kashmir issue, and thats where you lose out on your claims.

and now you can carry on your favourite past time

What was started as an honest discussion to unveil the trillion dollar Indian claims of grandeur has once again become "Blame everything on Kashmiris".....although i would still want patrons to support the original topic however some questions need to be answered.

@Anon

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You talk about corruption, but seem to ignore that your corruption standards ranked 2nd in the whole of india; You talk about 100,000 deaths but but somehow blackout how many deaths out of those occured due to your people killing your people , killed killers a.k.a. gun weilding militants by forces, informers killed by militants, people killed by indiscriminate grenades which missed the target; released militants killed by active militants; ikhwanis killed by militants; political workers and their familieskilled by militants; militants killed by militants to claim their ex-gracia from pak in pok; policemen and their families killed by militants; ... and the list goes on. And while you would, as it is in your nature, put the blame on someone else for all these deaths, not once will you accept that you brought it all on yourself. Sorry, but your whining on the issue has no takers.

Why do you think all this mayhem is happening, If India would have been honest and conducted a plebescite in 1948 till even 1953, would we have seen all this mayhem? and that my friend answers your question on who is entirely responsible for all our trouble. And it is utter stupidity to think that we brought it upon ourselves....no sir, we had no other option but to stand up for our rights and even today as we speak peaceful protestors are being killed by your army.

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I am amused that you can think of speaking on behalf of the whole J&K State. And it is also interesting to note that two main regions of the state , Jammu and Ladakh, don't share your bent of mind. Hats off to them for being true indians and sustaining the onslaughts of your particular type of ideology all these years. The fact that people from these regions still sacrifice their lives for the tricolor lends credibility to india's stand on the kashmir issue, and thats where you lose out on your claims.

So what is stopping you from conducting a plebescite in J&K, I mean if you already know that majority of the people will vote for you then go ahead and for once be a true secular, democratic nation to us people of J&K

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and now you can carry on your favourite past time

This may be your favourite past-time bro not ours, people are dying here.....we have lost our nears and dears. You probably don't know what it means to have someone shot in the chest for protesting peacefully. So, thanks for letting us know that killing us Kashmiris has become your favourite past time.

@anon

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I pity you because you don't even know where you are headed, and by your outbursts anyone can see that you all are one confused lot

I pity you for not opening your eyes to how your government is fooling you by spending your meagre resources on occupying our country. This debate is valid and necessary because you might be having issues seeing the truth but there are others in India who can separate wheat from chaff and call your government's bluff. All the money that your impoversihed country is spending on illegally and forcibly holding on to a sovereign country like Kashmir could be utilized in feeding the 250 million starving citizens of india. This is no rocket science and these are the facts. How exactly debating this issue makes us a confused lot, as claimed by Indians bereft of any reasonable arguments, is anyone's guess. Maybe they only take something to be a fact only when they hear it from Advani's mouth. But keep your eyes shut and keep living in a fool's paradise.

@chinaar

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Why do you think all this mayhem is happening, If India would have been honest and conducted a plebescite in 1948 till even 1953, would we have seen all this mayhem? and that my friend answers your question on who is entirely responsible for all our trouble. And it is utter stupidity to think that we brought it upon ourselves....no sir, we had no other option but to stand up for our rights and even today as we speak peaceful protestors are being killed by your army

I have seen them use this non-sensical argument so many times that I just ignore it altogether now. They seem to have some sort of a mental block that keeps them from absorbing reasonable arguments. As you mentioend, if they are so sure of the outcome, why not hold the long overdue plebiscite and settle it once and for all. But I guess this concept it too hard for them to comprehend. Maybe if they read it slowly, it might help?

@ Reporter

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I have seen them use this non-sensical argument so many times that I just ignore it altogether now. They seem to have some sort of a mental block that keeps them from absorbing reasonable arguments. As you mentioend, if they are so sure of the outcome, why not hold the long overdue plebiscite and settle it once and for all. But I guess this concept it too hard for them to comprehend. Maybe if they read it slowly, it might help?

You are right rather than continuing on a fruitful dialogue on how conditions for dalits, tribals, womenfolk etc can be improved, these Indians and Hindutva agents are back to their same age old tirade. I don't think they will ever understand our pain and anguish as they are completely blinded by their self glorifications. Its Narcissism at its best and our only hope is the world community/UN. Meanwhile they will continue killing us mercilessly and continue to keep their masses in abject poverty, sans electricity/sanitation and of course their women will continue to walk miles upon miles to fetch potable drinking water............its such an irony but who can Indians blame but themselves!!!!!!

1 An 'honest discussion' is one you don't call other names, and where words and expressions don't cross over the limilts of individual or cllective dignity. You may bother some indians by foul mouthing their country or their collective identity, but actually what you're doing is just wasting a lot of your time in meaningless ventures.

2. For example how does it matter to you what india does with its poor? Will your so called movement surge forward if indian citizens become rich-- or poor? What kind of an argument is that? Kashmir was india's territory in 1953 and so it is in 2008 and will be a decade from now, notwithstanding the changes in its economy... so what is your point? Are you suggesting saving on indian expenditure in kashmir as an incentive for india to pull out?? Is that what you all are harping on? Wake up!!

3. Why dont we go in for plebisite? Well that can be a possibility sometime in the future I suppose. I hope I get to see that event though. I hope you're in warm consultations with your brothers in arms across, maybe they can get the plebicite file pushed through the Kashmir Council in Islamabad. But yes, they will have to change their constitution first... but I guess that'll be no problem...with brothers there. And our friend pakistan has to vacate the kashmirland that it had occupied, before india agrees to receed...UN guidelines. No , don't expect us to force pakistan to do so because it wont be in our national interest, and also because it would certainly reject our proposition, the same way it rejected the entry of kashmiri apple through its territory. What else can I say..

@ Anon, hindutva agents and party

I think we have proven beyond doubt that India is a struggling economy much like many 3rd world countries however if India thinks that it can continue to kill Kashmiris and at the same time glorify itself, then who are we to stop you guys from doing so.....our chests are waiting for more bullets.....continue the anarchy, oppression and mayhem.

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An 'honest discussion' is one you don't call other names, and where words and expressions don't cross over the limilts of individual or cllective dignity. You may bother some indians by foul mouthing their country or their collective identity, but actually what you're doing is just wasting a lot of your time in meaningless ventures.

It is not a meaningless venture, we have to understand the true condition of India before we decide to vote against or in its favour. WE have not foul-mouthed India but only stated hard Facts from reputed organisations. Why is it a meaningless to open the eyes of self glorifying Indians about the real suffering India. Although Indians have over the last 60 years shown unfathomable, insurmountable collective dignity towards us Kashmiris, I however do apologise for any hurt sentiments as amongst you guys there are sane people like Arundhati Roy or Vir Sanghvi or Rashmi Sahgal and we respect them immensely. Such statements as theirs in a pseudo-secular state are never easy. I mean you people did not even spare a mighty leader like MOHANDAS KARAMCHAND GANDHI so the above named people are small punies.

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For example how does it matter to you what india does with its poor? Will your so called movement surge forward if indian citizens become rich-- or poor? What kind of an argument is that? Kashmir was india's territory in 1953 and so it is in 2008 and will be a decade from now, notwithstanding the changes in its economy... so what is your point? Are you suggesting saving on indian expenditure in kashmir as an incentive for india to pull out?? Is that what you all are harping on? Wake up!!

It is in our utmost interests if poor Indians get a better standard of life/Education because then only would they see beyond the Hindutva politicians/ ideologies and how their likes are fooling them about Jammu & Kashmir. Once the living standards of millions of Indians are uplifted and they are educated, their ignorance about government policies and killings of Kashmiris by the Indian army will be removed. Very similar to how the Vietnam war was stopped because of sane Americans lobbying in the USA against government policies and very much similar to whats happening in American politics over Iraq. Again for the trillionth time, you are an occupying force in contradiction of various UN resolutions....so J&K does not belong to India (it is a disputed territory). Yes saving on Kashmir which continues to bleed your economy massively is a bigger than big incentive for India to pull out.....I mean look at Israel....militarily and economically, it is in a much better shape than India and yet it cannot suppress the weak Palestinians. You see, the point is even if you get much more stronger and your per capita income rivals that of Israel, you will still have to let us go....so why are you hell bent upon killing more Kashmiris and slowing your economic growth by another century. SO Just live happy and let us poor folks live too.

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Why dont we go in for plebisite? Well that can be a possibility sometime in the future I suppose. I hope I get to see that event though. I hope you're in warm consultations with your brothers in arms across, maybe they can get the plebicite file pushed through the Kashmir Council in Islamabad. But yes, they will have to change their constitution first... but I guess that'll be no problem...with brothers there. And our friend pakistan has to vacate the kashmirland that it had occupied, before india agrees to receed...UN guidelines. No , don't expect us to force pakistan to do so because it wont be in our national interest, and also because it would certainly reject our proposition, the same way it rejected the entry of kashmiri apple through its territory. What else can I say..

Both India and Pakistan will have to make constitutional amendments...and whats the big deal about a constitutional amendment, I mean its not Gods word that cannot be changed. Constitutions are man made and therefore can be amended from time to time. There is no way you can force either Pakistan or China to do anything as you yourself don't have such a comfy disposition that you sometimes happen to dream of. J&K apple (read todays Greater Kashmir story which contradicts your statement) has survived a millenia so it will survive to live another day.

Thank you and regards

@chinaar,

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chinaar wrote:Hence proven that India is indeed a 3rd world country

Yes, absolutely. You have proven it. Now we can all rest a little bit while you wash the froth off, catch some breath, and we hunt for some scraps of food, until the India-bashing starts all over again in yet another thread.

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chinaar wrote:It is not a meaningless venture, we have to understand the true condition of India before we decide to vote against or in its favour.

I am actually surprised nay make that astounded that you are even considering voting in favour of an already-proven-3rd-world (for proof see your posts above), impoverished, can't-feed-its-millions kind of a pseudo-democratic, pseudo-secular british-designed non-country that has killed, maimed, raped, brutalized many, and held all of you in prison for so long.

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an already-proven-3rd-world (for proof see your posts above), impoverished, can't-feed-its-millions kind of a pseudo-democratic, pseudo-secular british-designed non-country that has killed, maimed, raped, brutalized many, and held all of you in prison for so long

This is so true that even though you try to make it look like sarcasm, it is painful to see you embarass yourself. Every single one of those is true; how sad!

What Chinaar meant is that you guys have been trying so hard to flaunt the misconception of India being the next promised land, which all the small neighouring countries like Nepal, Bhutan, Srilanka, and the rest are tripping over each other to be the next 28th state of, that Kashmiris are out of their mind to be asking for freedom. Hence Chinaars above comment. I figured out what he meant, I wondered why you went of on a tangent with your embarassing sarcasm