Jagmohan made the Kashmiri Pandits leave Kashmir

rprtr wrote:

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On other occasions, original thoughts, opinions, feelings, and experiences can have no website references anywhere because they are original thoughts, opinions, feelings, and experiences

No one is asking for sources for your original thoughts and feeling. Stop being melodramatic yourself.

And now will you substantiate your claims as to how exactly he is being melodramatic. Here is what melodramatic means:

exaggerated and emotional or sentimental; sensational or sensationalized; overdramatic.

Given your penchant for asking for sources in a threatening manner, you should have a problem in explaining as to what part of On other occasions, original thoughts, opinions, feelings, and experiences can have no website references anywhere because they are original thoughts, opinions, feelings, and experiences is exaggerated, emotional, sentimental ,sensational, or sensationalized or overdramatic. Otherwise, do feel free to warn yourself for making unsubstantiated claims.

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There are hundreds of posts on this forum and on this thread as well in which Kashmiri muslims have been ridiculed and made fun of - they have not been deleted bacause they are the posters' own opinion.

So point them out as "ridiculous" as I did with with one of your "ridiculous" posts regarding history of Kashmir, but you don't need to start threatening people against their opinions or facts. As far as I can see your own incapacity to negate points makes you defensive and threaten posters.

Anon's post was presented as being fact and hence required citing sources, which he failed to provide. Those are fair rules.[/quote]

This is what he said: I might as well tell you that I was EYEWITMESS to it all. And I find it a wast of time to paste references from people who perhaps never were in the Valley then. Unfortunately, my sources of information, which indeed is documented, can not be put up in any forum. Not that I cant collect it from the net as there are a million references to it. Its like asking proof that Godra or Gujarat happened! Its just that I feel that this forum is more about your personal agendas, than about accepting different viewpoints..

And there is no reason to believe that he is not a Kashmiri Pandit or an eyewitness. Admin, please substantiate it in any way before claiming that he is "lying"? What he is pointing out is reality to him, just like CPRF is reality for you guys. And he did provide sources (indirectly) when he said "there are a million references to it (on internet)" Did you bother to do a good faith check on the internet before starting to threaten him?

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that I cant collect it from the net as there are a million references to it

Post a few that mention about the heinous crimes he accused Kashmiri muslims of committing against our Pandit sisters and all arguments are resolved. We wont be having this argument. It is easy for people cornered in an argument to claim to be "personal witnesses". As if they would wait 20 years to finally divulge it on a forum. Provide a single news source that substantiates those claims and we can move the debate forward.

As for your earlier diatribe. I have no time for "your" melodrama.
My post is clear: No one ever objected to personal opinions being posted or asked for sources for a personal opinion. You 'think' Kashmiri muslims are pro-Pakistani, that's your misguided opinion and I am not going to be asking for sources for "your" personal opinion.

If you claim Kashmiri muslims engaged in heinous crimes, you bet I will ask for sources to back that claim however.

@admin, @reporter

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The claims are so grotesque and offending that it required him to cite sources, which he failed to provide, and hence his posts were deleted: those are the rules of this forum. Those were not his own opinions as posted on his original post, but rather written as though they were undisputed facts; he later recanted and claimed that he was a witness to those incidents, which is infact a lie.

I did not see him recanting anything. He said his proof was that he was an eyewitness to the situation. Why can you not believe him ? What proof do you have that he is lying and that he isn't an eyewitness ? Any reasonable person would have a hard time understanding your claims.

Anon further said that there were numerous references to atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus on the web. Did you check the references yourself ? I did. Here is what I found on Human Rights Watch (HRW).

Here is a link to Human Rights Watch that describes militant violence in Kashmir.

.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/7.htm#_Toc144362296

Here is an excerpt from the HRW page above (underlines are mine):

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<from HRW reports>
From the earliest years of the conflict, militant organizations fighting for Jammu and Kashmir’s independence or accession to Pakistan have committed grave human rights abuses and violations of international humanitarian law. Although independent figures are not available, militant attacks are believed to have resulted in the loss of thousands of civilian lives.470

In the early years of the conflict, many Kashmiris refused to believe that the militants were capable of human rights abuses. That has changed. During our research, villagers often provided accounts of both militant abuse and abuses by government troops. Even Kashmiri leaders, who for a long time refused to acknowledge abuses by people they call “freedom fighters,” are finally admitting to violations by the armed groups. Said Abdul Ghani Bhat, a leader of one faction of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, now admits that his brother was killed by a militant group and not by security forces as he had claimed for years

Here is a para that refers to militant attacks on Kashmir's Hindus (underlines are mine).

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<from HRW reports>
Some of the most egregious militant abuses have been carried out against members of Kashmir’s religious and ethnic minorities. This risks turning what has been primarily a political conflict into a religious one, something that many Kashmiri Muslims say they are worried about. Since the conflict began, there have been at least twenty massacres of minority groups in which militant gunmen have specifically targeted and then indiscriminately fired upon groups of unarmed civilians, usually in the middle of the night when they were asleep.486

I counted the number of Hindus killed in just those large massacres. It comes to 574, far higher than the 205 total casually cited by Kashmiri posters here. And this is just in large, well-known massacres mind you.

Here is a para that talks about militant threats and intimidation against Kashmiri Hindus. Underlines are mine.

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<from HRW reports>
In July 2005, five Hindu men were separated from their Muslim neighbors by alleged militants, and their throats slit.488 In 2003, after militants killed twenty-four Hindu pandits in Nadimarg near Srinagar, including eleven women and two children, many pandits fled to Hindu-majority Jammu.489 They joined the nearly sixty thousand Hindu families who have been internally displaced from Muslim majority areas by the threats and attacks of militant groups.490 Recent attempts by moderate separatist leaders to bring them back home have been opposed by militants, who issued a statement in July 2005 saying: “We impose a ban on the return of Kashmiri pandit migrants to the Valley.”491

I hope you now have the decency to admit that you made a mistake to completely trash Anon's account of a situation without any research on your part. If you claim to have the freedom to delete a person's account simply because it does not suit your world-view (by nonchalantly claiming that it is a total lie, instead of countering his claims) then it blows a big hole in your claims of fairness.

All millitants claims to be Kashmir Freedom Fighter
They claim to be Kashmiris and have stack in its destiny.

How can Salahuddin be not called Kashmiri and he is the head of Hizbul Mujaheeden.

Then if all Kashmiri Millitant are Kashmiri and they are fighting for Kashmir freedom
They have stack in Kashmir's destiny then why is it wrong to call that Pandits exodus is caused by Kashmiris


And if only Pandits left Kashmir and not Muslims then why one will not believe that civilans and millitatn are one.

how can 4000-5000 (rough count) millitant can cause exodus of 4 lakh and 4 million population of valley is no help.

why only pandits and why not others?

I will provide few links in which harrasment by Kashmiri Millitant is evident.
What kind of links you want?

@liberalM

No one is denying the fact that some militants (both government sponsored Ikwanis as well as others) attacked and murdered Pandits as well as pro_India Kashmiri muslims belonging to various political outfits.

Anon's claim was outrageous because he accused the Kashmiri muslims on the whole of being part of this heinous crime and of comitting crimes against our Pandit sisters, while using our mosque speakers to encourage others to participate in these crimes. The sources that you provide are not new and no will dispute those allogations.

Anon's claim are outrageous and no apololgy is forthcoming for calling him a liar.

We are all aware of the conspiracies theories and theorists, like for 9/11 in America there is atleast half a dozen conspiracy theory which even proves that ISI was involved in 9/11 attacks.

What I am trying to derive here, that this forum, or thread is spawning into conspiracy theories now.

Mr Reporter.
Kindly provide the proof Ikwani being government sponsored millitants.
Without a considerable proof as per your forum rule, your posting should removed or censored.
And dont provide pro-pakistani proof.

As per Hizbul and LeT involved I can provide the Mujahideen's own words as proof if you will.

There is complete thread under "Impoverished Indians"
Which is still there because its anti Indian.

Including the topic most of material there is tolerated as its not anti-Kashmir or anit-religion (islam)
although there not much proof given, one of my post even asked for world bank, asian bank, IMF
references as a proof but none was provided.

it will be there as its anti indian and no true kashmiri will care about it.

but anon post will be deleted as it lacks proof, which any ways I have given as millitant as kashmiri freedom fighter and they are kashmiri etc etc ( I dont want to repeat) what I want to tell here is this forum is biased and only for kashmiri and from kashmiri and to kashmiri ... as its mentioned in the "Forum Rules"

So as per Forum Rule anything anti kashmir can be deleted without requirement of proof.
If not then Impoverished" Indians should also be deleted or locked or something.

But its derivation of some feeling of satisfaction to "diatribe" as Mr Reporter suggested.

@admin,@reporter:

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Failing to provide any news links that allude to any of those incidents happening itself proves that those claims are lies meant to malign Kashmiri Muslims. We will not allow that to happen on a site that is meant to counter just that.

The last line "We will not allow that to happen on a site that is meant to counter just that" says it all.

In other words, any number of baseless, unsubstantiated allegations against Indians are perfectly fine but even a whiff of an allegation that has the remote possibility of maligning Kashmiri Muslims requires onerous proofs. How many serious discussions are you planning to have with reasonable Indians in this manner ?

There are many sites that have a well advertised bias but their discussion forums are absolutely free-for-all. A forum where even people's discussions can be amended, deleted, headings altered without their permission is a type of forum that I have not seen before. The deletion of Anon's offending statements, then the deletion of his/her entire posts, followed by separating the thread, then giving it a name that fits the Kashmiri Muslim world-view, all are signs of a bias in a discussion forum environment. If that is what you call fairness then I have no dispute whatsoever with what has been going on here in the past few days.

Dear LiberalM,
Do you still have any doubt left with Kashmir in the hands of GEN-NEXT who are the same as the Moderators of this forum. This is a general Kashmiri mindset NOW. And I have nothing but pity for them as they are not responsible for it and I feel so bad for them and just hope they come back on the right path.


I know what an authentic Kashmiri (irrespective of religion) was and I know how great and simple they were because I have been brought up by them.
I have spent more time with Kashmiri muslims in my childhood than with my own family. i have actually been raised by them till the time i was 15.

But then I saw how they were led on the path then are on, by our good neigbour(Pakistan) because they were too simple to understand their intentions.
And they screwed my people for which I as a kashmiri will never forgive them.
They led them to insanity before getting annihilated themselves, which we are seeing now.
No matter how much they deny it by citing 400 year old freedom struggle, some say 60 year old struggle, for some its 18 year old struggle, but its a fact which they can never shy away from.

It is completely futile what they are doing as simply put, its not right.

regards

The plague has already spread,

Read what Mr Farooq has to say
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&theme=&usrsess=1&id=224819

and Read what Mr Geelani has to say:
http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7183&Itemid=1

If its truly "Freedom Struggle"
Why god's name to be written on flag and the leader is asking to have uniformity, then truly its a religious freedom struggle.

I understand what coreKashmiri is trying to say..
But what I feel is that today's generation both in India and Kashmir has not gone through what 2-3 generation before all of us had gone through under britishers.

Is it truly lost cause?

The question is not the Kashmir land is snatched away by India, neither its that its people religion are forcefully changed, but the only cause seems here is religious freedom struggle.

What is India?
Upto my understanding its an Union (as per constitution) and a combination of thousands of variety of custom tradition religion languages etc etc etc ....
Even Hinduisum is summation of vast variety of sub sect, cast, culture and tradition, a north Indian Brahmin will be widely different in following tradition than South Indian Brahmin, but they will not fight like this.
We have even Hindus as Maoist/Naxalites and they are treated no differently than Islamic Militants.
And what is this 400 year old ..

Is Kashmir failure of democracy and secularism? In the name of atrocities by CRPF or religion is it worth to divide a nation?
Is there no voice left in Kashmir ?
Is it a lost cause?

Reporter wrote:

Anon's claim was outrageous because he accused the Kashmiri muslims on the whole of being part of this heinous crime and of comitting crimes against our Pandit sisters, while using our mosque speakers to encourage others to participate in these crimes. The sources that you provide are not new and no will dispute those allogations.

First I thought you were indulging in misinformation, but perhaps, you are young enough to be fortunate enough to not have have witnessed (either directly or indirectly) the 1989-91 period in Kashmir. Some events are better forgotten. Here are some references to directly corraborate what Anon was pointing out.

[Link and excerpt deleted by moderator: opinion article of an unreliable source]

[Link and excerpt deleted by moderator: anti-kashmir website based out of US]



[This link may be reinstated after verifying author and contents]

[Ureliable source]


[

Just see the irony...the title of this post, and where reporter moved various posts from posters and how finally this thread reached its final culmination by hated-in exposing the naked truth about what happened from the night of 19th January 1990, which would be remembered in the anals of history as one of the humanity's most barbaric acts of terror...straight from the dark ages...I didnt want to re-visist them, hence never mentioned them...

but for those ignorant fools, it will still be media propaganda and hindutva agent..

what a waste of time. I shouldn't have even tried. Bye now. last post for sure this time :-)

Just for the record for all here:

All those comments removed by reporter from hated-in's post were all from leading papers around the world, which since long reporter and admin were asking for....

chao from my side too.....

useless to discuss and try to make sense with dumb asses....

The context here is the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits and its causes

The post by hated in was having the links from world around as mentioned by core kashmiri

and here are the KP's own words, and other visuals to prove the same

It elaborates in more details regarding the KP's exodus

[anti-muslim propaganda deleted by moderator]

corekashmiri wrote:

Just for the record for all here:

All those comments removed by reporter from hated-in's post were all from leading papers around the world, which since long reporter and admin were asking for....

chao from my side too.....

useless to discuss and try to make sense with dumb asses....

No they were not.

Provide a single "news" item and the link will be allowed.

Opinion article by biased persons does not vindicate your stance. Then we would have allowed anon's comments in the first place.

Again the challenge is to provide reliable sources, not biased opinions of people with an agenda.

THE ONLY THING FINALLY I CAN TELL YOU AND YOUR ILK IS [obscene comment deleted by moderator] YOU...

AND [obscene comment deleted by moderator] BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU DESERVE....YOU [obscene comment deleted by moderator]...[obscene comment deleted by moderator]

Reliable sources is the KP themselves

For whose links I have provided and if you censor it again.

Then those can found and heard by simple search by "Kashmiri Pandit" and "Kashmiri Pundits" in youtube.

Now you can say that those are not reliable as well

It also has one video from Bhutto Giving sermons.

Leave to the readers to judge if the post is of some credibility or not

You wanna rewrite the history surely, good attempt.

It is sad that members have to resort to obscenity and swearing when they disagree on something. It is with sadness that I have to apply the rules on use of obscenity to corekashmiris account.

Corekashmiri if you want your account reactivated, send the Admin a pm on why your account should be reactivated.

Thankyou to the rest for keeping the discussion civilized.

Well to all others

who will read this later and if my words are not censored from here.

This is classic example of suppression of thought and expression as done by reporter unilaterlly to coreKashmiri.

I will demand that reporter should republish all those links which hated-in and myself have posted

And let a vote be done by this forum that if they should be removed.

this is neither democratic nor secular.

If we are not welcome to express our view then we should be banned very first itself
There is no need to make a drama and pretext of banning under some rules of this forum and make feel yourself important.

If you truly want to tell your fellow kashmiri the truth, let them take a stand, let me make a call
show them the links again.

And I will request reporter that please ban my IP address also,
As I can not resist my temptation to keep posting on this forum but I feel it to be of no good to post here.

I will be thankful to you, If you can ban my IP address (Specially if you decide not to repost those links)

-Corekashmiris account reactivated.
-Reporter has resigned as moderator.
-I will be shortly asking for a vote on the future of forum rules.
-I will decide on whether to publish all links recently deleted after going through them by later tonight.

I know this doesn't fit in the topic, but heartfelt wishes to everyone here on Eid!