Debate about Pandit exodus from Kashmir

Each one needs a careful look:

This links shows the exodus in 2003, due to muslim millitants, read the first two paragraph:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E0D91530F936A15750C0A9659C8B63

This is from 1990 showing the flee and stay back with muslim support in some areas:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806EFD81539F933A05750C0A9659C8B63
read the second para:
That decision proved fateful. Late last Sunday or early Monday, 24 Hindu Brahmins, or Kashmiri Pandits, as they are known, were executed in the village of Nandimarg by gunmen dressed in Indian army uniforms.

This is from 1991:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D8173CF936A2575AC0A967958260&sec=&spon=
"Last year, thousands of Kashmiri Hindu families including Mr. Koul's fled Srinagar, the summer capital of Kashmir, and other towns as the power of pro-independence Muslim militants grew and hostility sharpened toward native Hindus, especially the high caste Brahmins."

Below is the links of the Freedom Fighters aka Millitants being captured, Read the links it clearly says "Targeted Killings", which is called masscare and Riots.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DD1238F934A3575BC0A966958260
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE1639F932A05750C0A966958260

Mr Admin

By you graceful mercy we have this thread for 15 days.
I am so glad and obliged that you have given atleast 15 days for limited users with limited resources of this forum to fetch a proof for the KPs, which suits your criteria, who are not even aware, you are running this marathon campaign.

you sounds like a judge or dictator of this forum, who will decide if there any proofs are not.

you can go through all the links including video links we all have posted, and try to think.

Yes once in a while I see few guys here shedding "crocodile tears" for their betherns (KP) but they are not willing to accept that their own people (who are hardliners/millitants/Mujahedeens) have havoced this misery.

In my links above i have provided specific proof to as following:
-- Mass Murders
-- Targeted Killings
-- All kind of Atrocities.
-- The plight of left Behinds.

I am sure that with you biased vision you will still say that its not proven.

You will never accept that is surely proven.

Thanks

Quote :

.. pandits were forced to leave-agreed..but as someone rightly said they were facilitated by the then governer--the government..pandits were used against the kashmiri movement.

I will request peace to consider, that instinct of self preservation on the face of a hostile public environment have seen entire ethnic communities to escape to safer regions. We have seen sporadic hindu migration from hilly regions of Poonch, Rajouri, Doda, and Udhampur due to fear of militant reprisals, migration of kashmiris to Pok for fear of reprisals of security forces, etc etc. Kashmir’s situation of late ’89 and ’90 in my experience were nothing less than chaotic. There was no semblance of law and order, government machinery had collapsed, and the state police was totally in disarray, many of who joined the mass uprising against India. There were kashmiri pundits being killed during this period which dramatically resulted in panic amongst the minority community. And hence their collective decision to get out of Kashmir before its too late. The point that I’m trying to make here is, and this is for ‘peace’, tell me, would you leave your home and hearths and a life’s investment at the behest of a Mr. Governor if he told you that you have to forsake it because that your life was in danger at the hands of the majority community------ and especially so when you did’nt feel any such threat? Would a whole community leave because of a very secret Hindutva based administrative policy decision, even if there was one? Would such a diktat work, if not couplead with a real life threatening situation as perceived by the pundits?
And I would also like to know how in your opinion Jagmohan facilitated the exodus and whether you think kashmiri pundits would have escaped any further killings if they decided to stay. What would you have done if you were a minority community in kashmir and did not accept the concept of nizam-e-mustafa, or chant islamic religious slogans, or didnt politically agree with the concept of independence from india? I would like to know.
I am aware of some perceptions common in the valley that Jagmohan made pundits leave because he had an agenda of cracking down on kashmiri muslims, and there is now another perception (cited by Peace) that exodus of the pundits was a move by Jagmohan against the kashmiri movement. Maybe people who support these theories might have been privy to some very secret govt of india policy matters. As far as I know, and I was in the middle of it all, the state administration of the time, bewildered and beleagued by the law and order situation spinning out of their control, had indeed instructed all officers and poice stations to assist and help any kashmiri pundit families in the arrangement of public transport and their security if they wanted to temporarily move to Jammu for safety. This wa January 1990. The exodus continued for a couple of years more, much later than Jagmohan's term. The pundits still continued to be killed, till 1995 singly, and in families, now by pro pak militant groups at pakistans behest. Despite the condemnation of the common kashmiri. They couldnt do a thing. Some of my friends here have said that kashmiri pundits are still staying in kashmir. Yes they are , but only a few families, guarded by 'minority pickets' of state police and CRPF.

Quote :

..however i strongly oppose and do not believe at all that pandit women were raped by kashmiri muslims..someone did mention that too.

I too do not also believe that ALL pandit women were raped. There have been some, which have a mention in some of the links in this thread provided by hated-in, one of which is duly reflected criminal case in police station Soura. I would be grateful to you if you care point out here who said that.

Quote :

however i do not agree with liberalM when he defends anon for his remarks regarding the whole of kashmiri muslims..at number of places he would mention pakistan as kashmiri's best buddies and would call kashmiris(whole muslim population) as pakistanis which i strongly condemned at that time too...

Peace, I would really want you to check in the first place if I, in any of my posts said/ referred to ‘whole of kashmiri people as pakistanis’. I will also like you to remind me when it was that I mentioned ‘ whole muslim population as pakistanis’. That allegation is unfair and I am tempted to remind you of your phraseology describing ‘India’ and ‘indians’ as a whole, especially when you wrote as Ather
[quote]what the people are demanding is not just the seperate homeland for the pandits within the kashmir division but along with it settling of around 5 million brahmins who have ancesterol connection with kashmir
This is interesting. Can you refer me to any source of this information that you consider reliable?

Mr Admin

Kindly review the following links, they are specific as you requests:

Wandhana Massacare
http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/06/15/wandhama-massacre-the-forgotten-human-tragedy/

Images of threat (posters)
http://www.panunkashmir.org/appeal/index_prt.html

Date wise Chronlogy of Atrocities
http://www.geocities.com/jklf-kashmir/news98.html

Let me know What more kind of PROOF you need?
I will keep looking and posting good links, As I wait for your response.

Please be specific. that will help...

thanks

Here is what a KP is doing although herself and family was victim of massacre:

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/07/22/stories/2007072250030400.htm

"Kumari’s story perhaps best reflects the MNWA’s mission. For her, the MNWA has been a place of inner healing and reconciliation. Kumari’s family is one of the few hundred odd Pundit families left in the Kashmir valley. Growing up in the midst of the violence — her two uncles were kidnapped and tortured by the Hizbul Mujahidin — left Kumari emotionally scarred. Further physical dislocation and discomfort were caused when, after the Sangrampur massacre of Pundits in 1997, the family was made to shift by the local authorities from their village to the safer confines of Budgam proper. Four families were squeezed in each house, left behind by Pundits who had earlier fled Kashmir. All this bred fear and revulsion in Kumari for Muslims."

But still she is doing social service.

Truly to forgive is Divine.

It will help the disbelievers to look at specific dates.

http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=959&id=900815&tablename=News

and the article mentions:
The above list is only from 1993. The list could be huge if we start from the beginning.


@Admin:
Let me know what the specific PROOF that you are looking

@All

1) The events are between Aug 1993 to Oct 2006 [This was written on 6 oct 06]

If you observer the list 34 events listed in the previous link [http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=959&id=900815&tablename=News]

Most of them are in Jammu/Dodha region,
Specifically only 3-4 are in Valley.

WOW what an achievement, They have cleared the Valley by 1993, So they can proceed with Jammu,Dodha.

@Admin:
Your expert comments are welcome.

http://iref.homestead.com/kashmir90.html

"In December 1989, Joginder Nath, who taught at the Radha Krishna School in Srinagar, found his name, along with three other teachers, pasted on a noticeboard in the school by the Allah Tigers. They were told to quit the valley since they were agents of the intelligence services. Nath immediately left for his family house in Anantnag and stayed there. However, even there he was accused of being a government agent and he fled the valley in June 1990."

For your reference there are couple of images too.

After all all ISI and P-bullets has to find some destination its common sense.
They have spent millions if not billions.

@A
Does it clear some mist?

This is after the Valley's Ethnic Cleansing.

A partial listing of killings and massacres

Nadimarg Massacre, 24 March, 2003
Chattisinghpora Killings, March 2000
Prankot Killings, April 1998
Wandhama Killings, January 1998
Udhampore Killings, June 1997
Sangrampora Killings, 22 March 1997

Help yourself to find more details.... You are welcome,,,,, Its the Satan's Feast....

Oh yes,
I forgot that I am just giving texts, I should give some pictures as well

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13967&start=45

This site has lot of hate towards Islamist Fundamentalist (Sorry about that, I am propganding this site)

But this site has some rare pictures of Victims

(I dont what happened to their bodies)

@Admin : This is for you

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm

In the late 1980s, the groups began assassinating NC leaders and engaging in other acts of violence. Some groups also targeted Hindu families, and a slow exodus of Hindus from the valley began.

One month later, JKLF militants abducted the daughter of Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, then freed her when the government gave in to demands for the release of five detained militants.

On January 19, 1990, the central government imposed direct rule on the state.

Militant groups stepped up their attacks, murdering and threatening Hindu residents, carrying out kidnappings and assassinations of government officials, civil servants, and suspected informers, and engaging in sabotage and bombings. With the encouragement and assistance of the government, some 100,000 Hindu Kashmiris, known as "Pandits," fled the valley.



@Admin
Let me know if above is not proof of
-- Targeted Killings
-- Massacres
-- Ethnic Cleansing.

-----------------

@Admin

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm

he most serious of these have been the murders of hundreds of civilians, both Muslim and Hindu, who have been targeted because of their suspected support for the Indian government, or because they otherwise opposed the policies or practices of one or another of the militant groups.
Many of the attacks were also clearly intended to drive Hindu Kashmiris out of the state.

@ABC_XYZ

I think you need to cool down and read carefully what the debate is about.

No one is denying that militants targeted some pandits and lots of pro-india muslims as well.

The thing that started the debate was that muslims on the whole supported mass rapes and colluded with the militants to drive out Pandits from Kashmir, by ordering the pandits to leave through mosque loudspeakers.

What you provided are unfortunately propaganda sites.

What I am looking for is somthing along the lines of the last link you provided, from HRW, which clearly mentions that pro-india muslims were a target as well. However, no where does it mention mass rapes of Pandit women to terrorize them.

However, Kilo's post earlier clearly mentions the Indian army using rape as a weapon of war.

So read the posts from the beginning and you'll figure out what we are looking for.
So far what you have provided only qualifies as propaganda sites.

Here is what

http://ikashmir.org/displaymore.php?page=11&subchkey=80&itemid=613&chname=Publications&subitemkey=1873&subchnm=Books%20on%20Culture

On that fearful night I happened to be a thousand kilometres away from the blitz and bluster, but when I recall the distress phone call of my horror-stricken sister who let me hear through her speaker the cantankerous uproar from a thousand loudspeakers and more hoisted atop the mosques that rent the valley exhorting the faithful to come out of their homes and throng the streets for a Jihad, to drive the infidels out, banish the Pandit males and subdue their females,
I plug my ears to shut off the echo as I still shudder with the reverberations of that cacophony of religious frenzy which sent three hundred and fifty thousand of my faith marching from their homes into the Indian plains.
They say, ever since, the ghosts of that holocaust night stalk the length and breadth of my homeland and the big bang of that mob outcry still re-echoes from hill and dale like a curse.

@Admin
The voice of Victim is not a proof ..................................???????????????????????????????????????????

@ What I am looking for is somthing along the lines of the last link you provided, from HRW, which clearly mentions that pro-india muslims were a target as well. However, no where does it mention mass rapes of Pandit women to terrorize them.

Militants have also abducted and threatened civilians for the purposes of extortion. Members of some of the groups have committed rape, have threatened and attacked journalists, and have kidnapped tourists and others as political hostages.

ABC_xyz

Do you even know what a propaganda site is?

Those are sites that will sensationalize something that suits their agenda.

I dont know how hard that is to comprehend.

ikashmir.org is a propaganda site. Provide links that clearly mention that

1. Muslims of Kashmir were part and parcel of perpetrating rapes on Pandit women. Not one or two "criminal cases" but mass rapes like the one we saw Indian army perpetrating on muslim women in kunan poshpora.

2. That muslims used mosque loudspeakers to order the pandits out.

We dont want opinion articles or links from propaganda sites.

We want sources that are unbiased or actual news reports like kilo provided of the Kunan poshpora attrocities that occured in 1991.

@Admin

Here are details as requested.

Your Point:
1. Muslims of Kashmir were part and parcel of perpetrating rapes on Pandit women. Not one or two "criminal cases" but mass rapes like the one we saw Indian army perpetrating on muslim women in kunan poshpora.

Response:
The people who are doing this activities are referred to by Term "Millitants" and not "Muslims" for political reasons, though they are also Muslim of Kashmir. Like all security personal can't be hold guilty for crime of few (if any), whole Muslim community can't be hold guilty of crime.
(I hope that settles the "Muslim" question here, Even HRW cant say a religious term in such context.)

Here is the HRW links for Rape:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm
http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-41.htm
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/India-11.htm
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-01.htm
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-04.htm

Each of the above report search by rape, and under millitants you will find the mention, and I mentioned above what Millitant refers here (For Example: Yasin, Salahuddin AND NOT likes of Geelani or Maulvi Farooq)
I am clear here, I am NOT trying to say that all of Muslim community is guilty ........
NO WAY, my friend, there is no such intention. .......We have lived centuries together.

Regarding the Millitants Targeting Hindus is evident from my earlier post I believe that should suffice the Targeted aspects of it.


Although these links dosent mention that how many raped how many women
You may ask HRW to be specific about 1 or 2 or mass rapes.
I wish HRW will take your request into account for next report

2. That muslims used mosque loudspeakers to order the pandits out.
Using Loudspeaker is not a crime, and Hence it wont be in HRW report (such details)
Like Hockey was used or Bamboo Stick was used or 303 or AK 47 was used such details wont be there in HRW report?

But still use of loudspeakers is clearly mentioned in below links.
here is the link which claims regarding the use of louspeaker
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/5.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/india0906webwcover.pdf

(I have picked 2 out of 6 results for reference)

I hope you are have received your clarifications.

Sorry ABC i tried to look for it in the above links but not a single sentence anywhere. Maybe i am not looking properly.

Maybe you should cut/paste that paraggraph.

which one (can you be specific?)

ok without knowing what you are referring (muslim, millitant, rape, loudspeaker)

I dont know what to cut paste?

Quote :

Each of the above report search by rape, and under millitants you will find the mention

I did not find the above

Quote :

But still use of loudspeakers is clearly mentioned in below links.
here is the link which claims regarding the use of louspeaker

i could not find above either

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm
Militants have also abducted and threatened civilians for the purposes of extortion. Members of some of the groups have committed rape, have threatened and attacked journalists, and have kidnapped tourists and others as political hostages.

http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-41.htm
Kashmiri militant groups have also committed rape. In some cases, militants have raped women whose family members were believed to be informers or supporters of rival groups. In other cases, women have been raped and killed after being held as hostages for their male relatives. Although some militant leaders have condemned these abuses and vowed to take action against those who have committed rape, few have been able to discipline their own members, and the abuses continue.
The significance of rape as a gender-specific form of abuse in Kashmir must be understood in the context of the subordinate status of women generally in South Asia, as in much of the rest of the world. Women who are the victims of rape are often stigmatized, and their testimony and integrity impugned. Social attitudes which cast the woman, and not her attacker, as the guilty party pervade the judiciary, making rape cases difficult to prosecute and leaving women unwilling to press charges.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/India-11.htm
There are no accurate statistics on the numbers of these killings and other abuses, but anecdotal evidence from Kashmir indicates that most of these abuses have increased since 1994. The rise in some abuses parallels a rise in crime generally by militant groups; many abductions and assaults appear to be linked to extortion. Members of some of the groups have also committed rape, have threatened and attacked journalists, and have kidnaped tourists and others as political hostages.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-01.htm
In recent years, militants in both states have committed numerous, serious violations of humanitarian law, including direct attacks on unarmed civilians, indiscriminate attacks, summary executions, hostage-taking, rape, threats to commit bodily harm, and the use of religious sites for military purposes.(3)

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-04.htm
Violations of humanitarian law committed by militants include: execution-style killings of civil servants, notably Muslim political leaders associated with the National Conference party, which is allied with New Delhi, prominent Hindus, and civilians suspected of being government informers; attacks in which militants fail to distinguish between military targets and civilians; rape; threatening and attacking members of the minority Hindu community; violations of medical neutrality; and the use of religious sites for military purposes.



http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/5.htm
From the mosques, loudspeakers urged Kashmiris to come out and fight for azaadi, or freedom. Thousands of Kashmiris gathered to protest the actions of the security forces.128

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/india0906webwcover.pdf
Jagmohan was appointed on January 19, 1990. That night, in response to the kidnapping of
Rubaiya Sayeed and other militant attacks, Indian security forces conducted warrantless and thus
illegal house-to-house searches in Srinagar, hunting for illegal weapons or other evidence of
support to the militants. They dragged many people out of their beds into the bitter cold. Many
Kashmiris complained that they were beaten and abused.126 Jagmohan maintains that he had
nothing to do with the decision.127
The next morning, as word of the searches and beatings began to spread, people began to pour out into
the streets of Srinagar. From the mosques, loudspeakers urged Kashmiris to come out and fight for
azaadi, or freedom.

@ABC-xyz

I rest my case.

The above unbiased reports clearly mention that all kashmiris regardless of whether they were Pandit or muslim were victimes of "some" criminal elements in the militants. This includes the dreaded surrendered militants called ikhwanis. These were criminals even before they were militants.

To label these isolated criminal activities as "muslim fundamentalism" or "islamic terrorism" as all the propaganda sites that you previosly posted is very hurtful to say the least.

One thing is for certain:

1. Kashmiri pandits were not targeted specifically by kashmiri muslims. or there was no mass hatred of Pandits by muslims. some pandits were defintiely targeted by militants just as they targeted muslims. Both are wrong and condemnable but my point is that a majority of kashmiri muslims did not support that pandits left kashmir, and a absolutley not going to take it lightly if they are accused of being accessory to the raping their pandit sisters.

2. the myth that mosque loudspeakerrs were used to order the pandits to leave has been shattered. the hrw site would have mentioend about that jsut as it mentioned that mosque loudspeakers were used to ask people to come out and join the azaadi marches.

@jam

Thanks for your response and flexibility; below is one more excerpt:

Your Point
1. Kashmiri pandits were not targeted specifically by kashmiri muslims.
some pandits were defintiely targeted by militants just as they targeted muslims.

Reference:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm

he most serious of these have been the murders of hundreds of civilians, both Muslim and Hindu, who have been targeted because of their suspected support for the Indian government, or because they otherwise opposed the policies or practices of one or another of the militant groups.
Many of the attacks were also clearly intended to drive Hindu Kashmiris out of the state.

2. the myth that mosque loudspeakerrs were used to order the pandits to leave has been shattered
This cant be established through HRW site as I stated earlier that Hockey was used or AK 47 was used, and were they wearing paijams or jeans.
Loudspeakers were used that is certain,
NO HRW was there then and HRW wont deal into such nuances,
Which I truly understand are very very important from our perspective.
I will still say that use is certain but the exact language used can be certained by only the witnesses.
I myself can not vouch what exact language was or could be used.
Its possible that millitants took over mosque and used the loudspeaker for their purpose.
There are instances of Letters being left behind with such language, one can dare to think that same language can be used by loudspeakers (which may be hijacked as well)
But HRW surely wont deal in such areas.

My friend, there are few more references:
Its just the way we want to search the huge archives (and all of them may not be online)
But still here you go:

Your Point
Kashmiri pandits were not targeted specifically by kashmiri muslims.
some pandits were defintiely targeted by militants just as they targeted muslims.


Reference:
1. )

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/mil-abuses.htm

he most serious of these have been the murders of hundreds of civilians, both Muslim and Hindu, who have been targeted because of their suspected support for the Indian government, or because they otherwise opposed the policies or practices of one or another of the militant groups.
Many of the attacks were also clearly intended to drive Hindu Kashmiris out of the state.

2)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/3.htm
Hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris, known as “pandits,” fled the valley. Militant groups that espoused an extremist Islamist ideology issued threats to shopkeepers and others engaged in business that they considered un-Islamic, including liquor dealers and cinema hall owners

Many former militants say that they joined the armed groups because they were furious at the violations and wanted revenge.54 The basis of the armed conflict gradually changed from a secular demand for independence to a war grounded in Islamic terms. The pro-independence JKLF became weaker and was gradually replaced by the religious extremist Hizb-ul-Mujahedin, which promoted accession to Pakistan. Several JKLF members and supporters were killed, allegedly by militants belonging to the Hizb-ul-Mujahedin.

ince India had helped in dividing Pakistan, it also became a priority for Islamabad to ensure unity in the country that remained through an anti-Indian Islamic ideology.26

3)

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/pakistan0906/3.htm

We wanted independence and felt that Muslims on this side would be more sympathetic to our cause and therefore we came here—it is true that at the time we were intoxicated by the concept of Islamic jihad.

These groups had suffered the loss of infrastructure and personnel themselves in the earthquake, as McGirk noted:

[R]eports that the quake killed a hundred militants in training camps established near the Line of Control… have been circulating; the government has never acknowledged that such camps exist, even though India has since 1989 accused Pakistan of arming and supporting Islamic guerrillas and demanded the camps’ closure…34

4) http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/india0906/7.htm

In July 2005, five Hindu men were separated from their Muslim neighbors by alleged militants, and their throats slit.488 In 2003, after militants killed twenty-four Hindu pandits in Nadimarg near Srinagar, including eleven women and two children, many pandits fled to Hindu-majority Jammu.489 They joined the nearly sixty thousand Hindu families who have been internally displaced from Muslim majority areas by the threats and attacks of militant groups.490 Recent attempts by moderate separatist leaders to bring them back home have been opposed by militants, who issued a statement in July 2005 saying: “We impose a ban on the return of Kashmiri pandit migrants to the Valley.”491

he JKLF was responsible for some acts of violence, including the 1989 abduction of the daughter of Home Minister (later Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister) Mufti Mohammad Sayeed and attacks on some Hindu Kashmiri pandits, but it also led a largely peaceful people’s movement. A

Some women have also been punished for not adopting Islamic dress codes as demanded by some militant groups.498 Cable television operators, beauty salons, and Internet centers have been targeted for promoting “immorality.” In May 2006, cable operators were once again asked not to broadcast some channels.499 Recently, the Pakistan-based Harkat-ul-Jihadi-Islami has asked women to stop using mobile phones or to visit public parks.500