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 KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal

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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Kashmir Another Palestine   Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:01 am

@Liberal Marathi and Anon and all other Indians.

THIS IS WHAT YOUR FIRST PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID ABOUT J&K AT MANY FORUMS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD:

“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).



“In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.



“And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947).



“The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).



“We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).



“The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).



“People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).



“Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).



“We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).



“We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).



“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).



“I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.



“I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)



“The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(The Statesman, 1 May 1953)



“Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).



“We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..”



“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).



“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”



· JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).
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Chinaar
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PostSubject: Kashmir and Palestine   Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:33 am

@ Liberal Marathi

I hope you must have read what the Prime Miniter of India has quoted quoted till 1954 in my post preceding this one.

Quote :
THE INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION IS NULL AND VOID AS UNITED NATIONS DECIDED THAT JUNAGADH (SURAT) AND HYDERABAD (ANDHRA PRADESH) HAD MUSLIM RULERS WHO DID NOT WANT TO BE WITH INDIA.

Do you understand why Pakistan was taken as a party to the J&K dispute and why J&K was considered as a disputed territory in the first place by the International community. THE REASON IS CLEAR..... THAT IF JUNAGADH WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE A REFERUNDUM BASED ON ITS MAJORITY HINDU POPULATION AND A MUSLIM RULER WHY NOT J&K.

Following is an excerpt from Owen Bennet Jones writings on J&K.

[quote]The Muslim nawab of Junagadh ruled over a million people, 80 per cent of them Hindus. Junagadh was located in western India and, even though it was not strictly contiguous with Pakistan, its coastline offered the possibility of sea links to the Muslim state that was just 200 miles away. The nawab of Junagadh, guided by his pro-Pakistani chief minister Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto (the father of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto), decided to ignore the feelings of his Hindu population and acceded to Pakistan. It was the mirror image of the situation in Kashmir. The Indian government did not accept the decision, blockaded Junagadh and then invaded it. Delhi then imposed a plebiscite and secured the result it desired: Junagadh became part of India.

When Liaquat Ali Khan met Nehru at the end of November he exposed the illogicality of India’s position. If Junagadh, despite its Muslim rulers’ accession to Pakistan, belonged to India because of its Hindu majority, then Kashmir surely belonged to Pakistan. When Liaquat Ali Kahn made this incontrovertible point his Indian interlocutor, Sardar Patel, could not contain himself and burst out: ‘Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir and we could reach agreement.’ Patel was not alone in this view. On 29 October 1947 officials at the American embassy in Delhi had told the US State Department: ‘the obvious solution is for the government leaders in Pakistan and India to agree … [to the] accession of Kashmir to Pakistan and the accession of Hyderabad and Junagadh to India’. British officials in London concurred.

Source:Eye of the Storm, 2nd ed., by Owen Bennett Jones (Yale Nota Bene, 2002), pp. 68-69


Quote :


Now you may raise a rabble about UN and all but this is a blatant fact. Why a plebescite in Junagadh that you knew would be in your favour and NOTHING IN J&K. I am sure you will come up with all your machinations about how J&K is a different issue altogether n blah blah blah.

@ Anon

nothing is happening here except when kashmiris choose to defy police restrictions or curfew and thats when they feel the force of law[quote]

You mean State sponsored terrorism and Terrorists in Uniform. and yes we will defy your terrorists in Uniform as long as it takes. Your sentences ooze of arrogance and partiality but we don't expect anything else either.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and Palestine   Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:03 am

Quote :
I would love to live in Kashmir, but I cannot. Art 370 takes care of that. You, on the other hand, are free to live anywhere in the rest of India.

If a 700,000 strong army has no problems to live here, you shouldn't have either. Anyways live here as our guest and see for yourself. I challenge you LiberalMarathi that in a six month period provided that you live with commoners and not under security, all your points that have been stated here will seem ludicrous to you only. Its easy to talk n debate but face the practicalities of living in a garrison and then you will come to know what I mean. As far as rest of India is concerned, I have nothing against anybody living anywhere provided we as the people of J&K are given our right to self determination.



ALL the killings in J&K are because of what happened after 1989. I mean this is a crazy notion that you indians harbour to satisfy your alter ego of self glorification. C'mon guys if you had been just to us in 1951 or 1953, the situation that we are facing today would have never come up. You took away from us our right to self determination (when you exercised it in JUNAGADH) and therefore pushed us into total chaos and anarchy. We are suffering today because of continuous Indian machinations in J&K.

By the WAY DO SHED SOME LIGHT ON PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA Pt. JAWAHAR LAL's statements on Kashmir that I posted earlier on.

You see GUYS, India has a very weak political,moral n ethical base in J&K. Therefore your counter arguments plus arrogant attitudes at the same time never cease to amaze me.

Brothers continue living in an oblivion and stay oblivious to facts.....who am I or any Kashmiri to change your biased perceptions about the glorious India in J&K. We have kept the torch of freedom alive for 400 years, it will continue to burn in our hearts, you may be able to suppress n subjugate us through sheer numbers n brute force but you will never ever conquer our hearts n brains. WE SIR ARE A VERY RESILIENT PEOPLE and will continue our just struggle for self determination. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:21 am

@chinaar,
Quote :
chinaar wrote:
Do you understand why Pakistan was taken as a party to the J&K dispute and why J&K was considered as a disputed territory in the first place by the International community. THE REASON IS CLEAR..... THAT IF JUNAGADH WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE A REFERUNDUM BASED ON ITS MAJORITY HINDU POPULATION AND A MUSLIM RULER WHY NOT J&K.
Pakistan was taken as a party to the J&K dispute because Pakistan was the aggressor party in J&K. J&K standstill agreement was violated first by the irregulars from NWFP and then the regular Pakistan Army. Pakistan's being party to J&K dispute, I repeat, had nothing to do with Junagadh.

Quote :
chinaar wrote:
If a 700,000 strong army has no problems to live here, you shouldn't have either. Anyways live here as our guest and see for yourself. I challenge you LiberalMarathi that in a six month period provided that you live with commoners and not under security, all your points that have been stated here will seem ludicrous to you only.
I will come and stay when the Valley returns to the peaceful environment it had before 1989, when there were tourists everywhere. Today, in an environment of so much hatred, no one from the plains would want to come and stay in Kashmir. There are plenty of other places to go and see where the locals don't insult you day in and day out.

Quote :
I have nothing against anybody living anywhere provided we as the people of J&K are given our right to self determination
I don't have anything against self-determination. Who will create the necessary conditions for that to happen ? All parties in the neighbourhood of Kashmir Valley have a stake in Kashmir Valley. Won't their interests need to be taken into account ? Who is going to guarantee that Kashmir Valley won't be another terrorist hub like Afghanistan or house terrorist training camps like in POK ? As long as Pakistan remains an active enemy of India, India will never agree to any self-determination for Kashmir Valley. No chance whatsoever. Until that time, your best bet is to follow the leaders who can lead Kashmir on a path of Development, not on a violent path of unattainable independence.

Quote :
ALL the killings in J&K are because of what happened after 1989. I mean this is a crazy notion that you indians harbour to satisfy your alter ego of self glorification. C'mon guys if you had been just to us in 1951 or 1953, the situation that we are facing today would have never come up.
Situation around Kashmir Valley changed very rapidly with the enmity between India and Pakistan. Kashmir's leadership should have foreseen the writing on the wall. Kashmiri leadership at the time should have realized that independence was a futile goal under those circumstances. They should have concentrated their energies on developing Kashmir while maintaining its autonomy. Kashmir's leadership failed to do that. They lost not only their development agenda, they lost the autonomy with it. That autonomy was never supposed to be misused against India. Now you are blaming India for ALL your ills. You are suffering today because of extremely poor leadership in the past. The alternate crop of leaders in the form of Geelani Sahab is equally worthless to get you out of the mess.

Quote :
By the WAY DO SHED SOME LIGHT ON PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA Pt. JAWAHAR LAL's statements on Kashmir that I posted earlier on.

You see GUYS, India has a very weak political,moral n ethical base in J&K. Therefore your counter arguments plus arrogant attitudes at the same time never cease to amaze me.
Plebiscite ? I have no problems with it - so I have no problems with Nehru's statements. Just like Nehru, I will have problems with the questions of WHEN ? Plebiscite is impossible under the current circumstances with arch-enemy Pakistan still around. So I have no problems with plebiscites and referendums but I have problems with the timing and the circumstances.

Quote :

WE SIR ARE A VERY RESILIENT PEOPLE and will continue our just struggle for self determination
As long as you do it peacefully, I wish you well. And please, please, spare a thought for all the innocent victims of the conflict in Kashmir, and not just the victims of the armed forces brutality. When you start going through the records, you'll realize (as I did), how many countless innocents were killed in the cold blood by the armed militants. Don't ever tell me they deserved to die at the hands of the militants because India did not give you your right of self-determination. I will lose all respect for you. No cause is worth taking an innocent life for. EVER !
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:49 pm

Quote :

You see GUYS, India has a very weak political,moral n ethical base in J&K. Therefore your counter arguments plus arrogant attitudes at the same time never cease to amaze me.

Politically and Legally, as soon as the Maharaja of J&K signed the instrument of accession, J&K became an integral part of India. The only illegal issue here is Pakistan's control of J&K territory and its illegal gift of illegally occupied J&K territory to China.

Historically, J&K and areas beyond it have always come under Indian influence; hence, the so called "Indian occupation" of J&K is a moot point.

Morally, governments have an obligation to maintain territorial integrity of the country and Indian constitution does not award its citizen the right to secede from the country.

Religiously, J&K is a diverse place, so no one religion can be allowed to "hijack" the state like the Sunni Muslims of Kashmir valley are trying to do.

After that we call can get into who-said-what kind of verbal duels, but it will never change the basic facts.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and palestine   Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:27 pm

@ LiberalMarathi

Quote :
I will come and stay when the Valley returns to the peaceful environment it had before 1989, when there were tourists everywhere. Today, in an environment of so much hatred, no one from the plains would want to come and stay in Kashmir. There are plenty of other places to go and see where the locals don't insult you day in and day out.

A record number of Indians visited J&K this year. I think its above 200,000 but don't have the exact figures. Not even a single tourist was touched or insulted. We have nothing against guests and will give up our lives to protect them, they can always come n enjoy the pristine beauties of J&K anytime. Our objective is that our right to choose be upheld.

Quote :
I don't have anything against self-determination. Who will create the necessary conditions for that to happen ? All parties in the neighbourhood of Kashmir Valley have a stake in Kashmir Valley. Won't their interests need to be taken into account ? Who is going to guarantee that Kashmir Valley won't be another terrorist hub like Afghanistan or house terrorist training camps like in POK ? As long as Pakistan remains an active enemy of India, India will never agree to any self-determination for Kashmir Valley. No chance whatsoever.

I am happy that you have nothing against self- determination and I sincerely thank you for that. As far as India never giving us that right to choose, let us see for how long a truely secular n democratic country can continue on its path of suppression and subjugation and have insecurities which are miniscule when you compare it with the true spirit of Humanity enshrined into a democratic nations credentials.

Quote :
Plebiscite ? I have no problems with it - so I have no problems with Nehru's statements. Just like Nehru, I will have problems with the questions of WHEN ? Plebiscite is impossible under the current circumstances with arch-enemy Pakistan still around. So I have no problems with plebiscites and referendums but I have problems with the timing and the circumstances.

Thank you once again for having no problems with a plebescite. As far as timing and circumstances are concerned, India had a golden opportunity when Agra Summit happened between Atal Behari Vajpayee n P.Musharaff. Sadly the hawks won again. Bro, do we stop swimming in the sea for fear that sharks and killer whales might attack us, does a child who wants to learn swimming stop going into the water for fear of drowning. We will always have problems of one sort or the other, We have to let go of our insecurities and forge ahead. Only then will we learn to respect each other.

[/quote]As long as you do it peacefully, I wish you well. And please, please, spare a thought for all the innocent victims of the conflict in Kashmir, and not just the victims of the armed forces brutality. When you start going through the records, you'll realize (as I did), how many countless innocents were killed in the cold blood by the armed militants.[quote]

Any loss of life is condemnable however you have to understand why all this happened in J&K. Its not just failed Kashmiri leadership but the dubious, contorted often fabricated policies of the Indian Government in J&K which was and is reponsible for the turmoil in J&K. There were no militants before 1989, but why did thousands of Kashmiris take up arms.......WHY? Not just their own leaders but a democratic nation like India failed them too. It failed on all fronts and that is why thousands took up the gun. In the changed scenario of today, the Kashmiris carry no Kalashnikovs but their yearning for self determination is even stronger than before. They have seen enough blood shed and therefore denounced the gun believing that India and the world community will now listen to their non-violent pleas of right to self-determination. They are today following The Great Mahatmas epithets on non-violence and peace.

AT conclusion, I must appreciate your efforts to understand the Kashmir problem and you sure have come a long away from when you first started writing on Koshurs blog. Whether we choose to check into Hotel California or prefer to stay outside is a thing for the future, however one thing is for sure, Today people of J&K are infinitely more aware of their rights than they were in 1953 or 1977. That knowledge of political awareness is a pivotal factor in making the hundreds of thousands come out on the streets of Kashmir today in total defiance of the Indian rule.

Keep working LiberalMarathi, I have a feeling that you are a saner Indian (an endangered species) Very Happy .
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:00 pm

Chinaar wrote:

Any loss of life is condemnable however you have to understand why all this happened in J&K.

Its not just failed Kashmiri leadership but the dubious, contorted often fabricated policies of the Indian Government in J&K which was and is reponsible for the turmoil in J&K.

Not even the government denies the fact that people in Kashmir Valley have been alienated as a result of botched elections. In the knowledge of past mistakes, it is a well acknowledged fact that situation in Kashmir could have been better handled.

Quote :

There were no militants before 1989, but why did thousands of Kashmiris take up arms.......WHY?

By 1989 Pakistan had realized that it would never be able to take J&K away from India by force through wars since each war had led to successive loss for Pakistan.

When Soviet occupation of Afghanistan ended in Feb 1989, it freed up a lot of arms and it freed up ISI which was the primary conduit through which US was passing arms to Afghan Muahedeen (or the precursors of Taliban).

To contain soviet advances in Afghanistan, Pakistan's ISI had very successfully brewed up a fanatical religious armed movement (the Afghan Mujahedeen) with the help of billions of dollars that it received from US to successfully counter the soviet threat.

Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan in Feb 1989 and this had major repercussions in South Asia because 1) it freed up Pakistan to shift it's focus from Afghanistan to India, 2) it freed up a lot of arms that were used to fight soviets in Afghanistan, and 3) It ended US aid to Pakistan.

Encouraged by its success in Afghanistan, Pakistan tried to do the same in J&K: it brewed up religious fanaticism and put arms into the mix along with some Afghan Mujaheedeen. This was one of the primary cause of violent uprising in Kashmir Valley in 1989. Indian government was suddenly caught with a surprise when it saw all AK-47s from Afghanistan ending up in Kashmir. Terrorism became rampant, tourism (and hence livelihood of normal people ended), religious fanaticism and unemployment increased.

The only difference was that unlike Afghanistan, there was no US funding for Pakistan for brewing "jihad" in J&K. Swayed by emotions, people in Kashmir Valley allowed terrorists to "hijack" and "exploit" whatever resentment they had and these led to end of any and all legitimacy that Kashmiri freedom movement may have had until that time.

Quote :

Not just their own leaders but a democratic nation like India failed them too. It failed on all fronts and that is why thousands took up the gun. In the changed scenario of today, the Kashmiris carry no Kalashnikovs but their yearning for self determination is even stronger than before. They have seen enough blood shed and therefore denounced the gun believing that India and the world community will now listen to their non-violent pleas of right to self-determination. They are today following The Great Mahatmas epithets on non-violence and peace.

Over the next 20 years (after 1989), Pakistan's efforts in J&K and its meddling in Afghanistan (where it sponsored the Taliban and supported global Jihad and terrorism) pretty much ended up bankrupting Pakistan and converting Pakistan itself to a terrorist anarchy.

At the end, Pakistan realized that not even wars and not even Afghanistan style jihad would have any effect on J&K and started talking peace (but only after it attempted another failed misadventure in Kargil). While as people in Kashmir Valley became increasingly disillusioned with the redundancy of violence as a method to settle their grievances.

So after 20 years or wasted efforts and lost lives, we are pretty much back to square one. Pakistan is bankrupt and no longer any significant threat to India that it used to be in 1980s when US was freely giving arms to Pakistan to contain soviet threat. And Kashmir Valley has realized that violence won't lead to anywhere.

Quote :

However one thing is for sure, Today people of J&K are infinitely more aware of their rights than they were in 1953 or 1977.

Obviously they are not yet able to recognize the full scope of rights that they have under article 370. Once the emotional atmosphere of the valley cools down a bit, hopefully sane "leaders" (and by that I mean real leadership) will prevail and people will become more aware of their full rights within the constitution of India.
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:42 am

How I wish Kashmiris understand what you have written hated-in.
I can only pray for their awakenings.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and palestine   Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:44 am

@ANON and Hated Indian.

Quote :
How I wish Kashmiris understand what you have written hated-in.
I can only pray for their awakenings.

OH!! my dear brothers we are actually more awake than ever before. To be precise we slept on our woes for more than 40 years from 1947 till 1989 and it took us that long to wake up.....so we aint gonna be sleeping in a hurry.

How I wish though that you would see beyond the prism of religious bigotry and partisan-ship. I can only pray to Almighty that our brothers "The Kashmiri Pandits" once again come back to live with us in an independent J&K for it is only in an independent J&K that all communities will feel safe n secure.

I ask of you my brothers to use all your good offices to impress upon the Government of India to set J&K free. The only impediment to your coming back to J&K is the government of India itself very much like how the Government of Pakistan is responsible for a lot of ills amongst many Kashmiri Muslims. In our freedom struggle towards independence it is of utmost importance that the forces of religious harmony and brotherhood come together under one umbrella.

Together, we can and will throw out India n pakistan out of J&K. If we don't understand this basic fact, then we will continue to live in total anarchy n chaos. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: religious harmony   Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:52 pm

Quote :
I ask of you my brothers to use all your good offices to impress upon the Government of India to set J&K free. The only impediment to your coming back to J&K is the government of India itself very much like how the Government of Pakistan is responsible for a lot of ills amongst many Kashmiri Muslims. In our freedom struggle towards independence it is of utmost importance that the forces of religious harmony and brotherhood come together under one umbrella

Chinar, you make me laugh! " forces of religious harmony and brotherhood" ? Do you really see yourselves as one of those forces that could inspire anyone? Have you checked out your own record on religious tolerance?

And before you really freak out hallucinating, don't forget that your freedom banter is confined only to a one part of Jammu and Kashmir.....and the rest is india.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and the return of Pandits   Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:14 pm

@ Anon

Quote :
Chinar, you make me laugh! " forces of religious harmony and brotherhood" ? Do you really see yourselves as one of those forces that could inspire anyone? Have you checked out your own record on religious tolerance?

And before you really freak out hallucinating, don't forget that your freedom banter is confined only to a one part of Jammu and Kashmir.....and the rest is india.


Laugh to your hearts content my friend, but today.... the facts are that for your safe return to Kashmir, the independence option is the only viable option.

And yes by your continual blind support to Indian policies in Kashmir which has resulted in the murder of hundreds of thousands of your muslim brothers n sisters, you yourself sir are propagating religious hatred n communalism.

However, when you start hallucinating again, remember the one a half districts of Jammu n Udhampur are not the only voice of J&K.....J&K is Mirpur,Muzaffarabad, Tralkhud, Baltistan,Kashmir,Kargil,Poonch,Rajouri,Doda,Kishtawar etc etc etc.

Anyways by talking the way you are talking, you are burning up all the remaining bridges of human understanding n virtue.

I wish you all the best n do pray that lord above opens up your eyes to the reality in the ground. Smile
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PostSubject: creating another palestain story-I   Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:25 pm

Srinagar, Sept 13: The agenda is out. The link between the Amarnath agitation and behind-the-veil Saffron plot is exposed. The Bhartiya Janta Party has demanded nationalization of the entire route to Amarnath cave in the Kashmir valley.
In his presidential address to the three-day national executive meeting in Bangalore yesterday, that normally indicates the broad direction of the party policy, BJP president Rajnath Singh demanded the road leading to the Amarnath shrine be nationalized.
“Amarnath Yatra is not only a pilgrimage but also signifies the vibrancy of relations between the Kashmir valley and the rest of India. During the two months of pilgrimage, the interior parts of Kashmir valley get emotionally linked with the rest of India. Therefore, this pilgrimage symbolises national integration. That is why I consider this yatra to be of national importance. It is in this context that I am demanding that the central government should nationalise the road of the Amarnath Yatra so that in future no attempt is made to disturb the social harmony for political reasons.”
The 200 executive members of the party, that is widely predicted to win the next parliamentary elections, responded with thumping desks. Rajnath continued, “And displaced Kashmiri Pandits should be rehabilitated in special enclaves in the Valley.”
While Rajnath did not elaborate, Panun Kashmir today filled the missing link. “We have already earmarked the area for the creation of a separate Homeland on the north east of river Jhelum. The political map of this area has already been released. This area, which includes Amarnath Shrine, provides vital surface link to the Ladakh region. Creation of Homeland with union territory status in the Valley would secure the territorial and civilizational imperatives of the Indian nation on the northwestern front,” Panun Kashmir said. The radical organization claims representing Kashmiri Pandits.
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PostSubject: creating another palestain story-II   Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:47 pm

if this is the kind of solution that the organisation which claims to represent kashmiri pandits has then kashmir is surely heading towards another palestain..at the moment it is hard to belive that such an idea can be materialize but the number of amendments that india has made against kashmir constitution can make it possible...india has made more than 350 changes in the kashmir constitution which has made the region dependent more and more on india...
the above mentioned idea by the BJP backed organisation,panun kashmir will surely lead kashmir towards another palestain..carving out a seperate land will surely make the problem more complex..the organisation plans to settle 5.5 million brahmins from india who have ancestral connections with kashmir..well that is a serious concern..first of all i dnt believe that is possible at all but if backed by new delhi then it can happen..then that does prove the concern by many kashmiris regarding the demographic change of the valley...on contrary muslims can ask for the same thing regarding the resettlement of kashmiri muslims who had migrated to punjab and other plains of india during sikh and dogra rule...if kashmiri pandits want to settle they will have to the same way as they were before migration..they will have to bear the same brunt what a common kashmiri muslim is suffering..they will have to face the same hardships and the same stick of the army and the government..how can the organisation claim on 15000 jobs which they had left after there migration..how can people equate the deaths of more than 1 lakh kashmiri muslims with 300 around kashmiri pandit deaths..now dnt talk about ethnic cleansing of kashmiri pandits as everyone who is aware of the situation in 90's know why kashmiri pandits left under whose influence..people have made up there opinions by watching barkha dut or listening to advani..and that is for them to decide whether they want to have the right view of the situation or a biased one..there is no need to have an argument here based on ego or patriotism but rather should be on facts and right understanding..
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:14 am

Reporter wrote:

Admin and myself have decided to impose the "three strikes rule". Consider this to be your first warning.

You guys are being a little too overzealous.
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:06 am

Anon wrote:

... seems that you dont have the courage to accept where your people went wrong.

Anon,

They (the Kashmir separatists) are in denial right now: there violent movement has failed, their "brother" pakistan and its ways have failed, they have no legal basis, no historical basis, and no political basis, and no real grievances as well. They can't agree event among themselves as to what they want. The only thing that is keeping this thing alive is their blind religious fanaticism to create an Islamic state and a mental state of denial of their on violent excesses against their own people.

While the Indians here are openly accepting responsiblity and writing letters to CPRF for human rights violation, not one peep from the separatists regarding the second largest forced migration in South Asia: that of Kashmiri Pandits out of Kashmir. I don't blame them. How else will they live their daily lives (if not without denial).

And all this time, the rest of India has moved on, the rest of the world has moved on while these people are bent upon a path of self-destruction and stuck in 1948. The events of 1989-90 clearly indicate that Kashmir would have turned into a Taliban state.
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PostSubject: Kashmiri Pandits   Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:20 am

@ anon and hated-Indian



Quote :
the rest of India has moved on, the rest of the world has moved on while these people are bent upon a path of self-destruction and stuck in 1948. The events of 1989-90 clearly indicate that Kashmir would have turned into a Taliban state.



The rest of the world is getting more radicalized because of people like you. The polarization of societies is becoming even more ferocious. I don't know who has moved where, your pro-India stance has moved you into the present day mess. If only like our Sikh brothers, you would have seen beyond the nefarious designs of Jagmohan who sent military vehicles to evict you guys from various localities. Today our Sikh brothers continue to live amongst us in Srinagar/Tral etc......no one threw them out!!!!! Whether we would have turned into a Taliban state is not for you to judge, however you sure do seem to be Jansanghs(VHP,BAjrang DAL, BJP, RSS) spokesperson on J&K affairs.

Despite your very vindictive accusations which are nothing but rhetoric (official figure of Kashmiri Pandits killed is approx 209 and not hundreds of thousands and most of these KP's killed belonged to Indian security agencies). Now on the other hand Kashmiri Pandits working in Indian security agencies n Intelligence have on their hands the blood of thousands of our innocent Kashmiri martyrs......care to mention a word or two on that.

Anyways, you guys are too radicalized by the hindutva agencies to ever change for better, you will never see beyond the prism of your Hindutva fantasies. Meanwhile your brothers n sisters here are continually being killed day in n day out.......n in your mode of vengeance, you guys participate n support the Indians in this blood bath of Kashmiris.

True we all have made mistakes but your arrogance being an Indian Kashmiri Pandit is ludicrous n beyond a sane mans understanding.
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:33 am

Chinaar wrote:

True we all have made mistakes but your arrogance being an Indian Kashmiri Pandit is ludicrous n beyond a sane mans understanding.

Brother, I am neither Kashmiri Pandit, nor Hinduvata agent, and nor "anti-muslims". There are more than 500 groups in India and you won't be able to tell which group I belong to in your wildest dreams. And you haven't even convinced one, i repeat even one, of these more than 500 groups that your so called "freedom struggle" has any basis whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and Palestine   Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:51 pm

@ Hated-Indian

Quote :
And you haven't even convinced one, I repeat even one, of these more than 500 groups that your so called "freedom struggle" has any basis whatsoever.

The presence of 700,000 armed troops on the ground is more proof than u would ever require about how convinced India is about our freedom struggle.....however, from Simranjeet Singh Mann (Akaali Dal) to Vir Sanghvi (representing your inteelectual cadres), a lot of the saner Indians have begun to accept the basis of our struggle.

I agree though that a large majority of Indians like yourself are continuing their Hindutva laden animosity towards us poor folks but we will continue our just fight for self determination. The worse that India can do is NUKE us, we are ready for that too.......come n kill us but we won't give up our right to choose our destiny. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:45 pm

Chinaar wrote:

The worse that India can do is NUKE us, we are ready for that too.......come n kill us but we won't give up our right to choose our destiny. Smile

They way you use "NUKE" so casually scares the hell out of me. Is there anything else that you can think of besides "NUKE" and "come n kill us", they hate us, we hate them, genocide, ethnic clensing, etc? Most people I know of are usually happy enough if they have enough money to go out and eat chaat every once in a while.
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PostSubject: Kashmir n Palestine   Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:40 pm

@ hated-indian

Quote :
They way you use "NUKE" so casually scares the hell out of me. Is there anything else that you can think of besides "NUKE" and "come n kill us", they hate us, we hate them, genocide, ethnic clensing

Wow! man, I admire your guts, you are makin the oppressor look like the opressed. You have massacared my kith n kin but the word NUKE scares you. ITS You WHO have tested Nuclear bombs (To scare yourself-I guess) and yet talk about chaat. This indifference towards our sufferings is truly mind-blowing.

What you are portraying is hypocrisy coupled with arrogance at the highest possible level.

Stop the Melodrama and accept what HRW, OHCHR n Amnesty International have been repeatedly telling you.
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:11 am

Chinaar wrote:

Wow! man, I admire your guts, you are makin the oppressor look like the opressed.

So why is that only your "community" (the sunni muslims of kashmir valley) that is being oppressed? What about people in Laddhak, Jammu, the Sikhs, the Kashmri Pandits (who consider your own community as opressors) and more than a dozen much smaller groups. Why don't they feel pressed? Or they are not Kashmiris in your opinion?
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PostSubject: Kashmir another Palestine   Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:04 am

@ Hated-Indian

Quote :
So why is that only your "community" (the sunni muslims of kashmir valley) that is being oppressed? What about people in Laddhak, Jammu, the Sikhs, the Kashmri Pandits (who consider your own community as opressors) and more than a dozen much smaller groups. Why don't they feel pressed? Or they are not Kashmiris in your opinion?


Rhetoric, rhetoric n nothic but baseless rhetoric.

As always you are an ignorant Pandit who knows very little about the ground situation. You are sitting somewhere on your comfy desk and fantasizing about events here.

The biggest protest demonstartion against Indian occupation till date in the recent months was held by the Shias of KASHMIR (sorry for bursting your bubble).

The Sikhs of Kashmir provided logistical support and food n drinks for Muzaffarabad Chalo plus United Nations march from Tral to Baramulla ( There goes your tirade about communities).

Hundreds of people from both Kargil and Ladakh protested side by side with us at the UN in Srinagar (Thank your media for not reporting n censoring news).

Doda, Poonch, Rajouri, Kishtawar has seen unprecedented demonstrations against the Indian rule.( Check the forum for news sources)

Yes, I do agree that unfortunately our Kashmiri Pandit brothers and the their dogra hindu compatriots (WHO ARE JOINED TOGETHER BY THEIR COMMON BOND OF FANATIC HINDUTVA) did not support us and in fact put up an economic blockade to kill more of our sick n wounded by denying us basic items like life saving medications.

My brother, unfortunate though it is....you have chosen a different path than what your majority brothers have gone upon. Tragic though it is for us common Kashmiris (whether Sikhs, Sunnis, Shias or Buddhists) we have no choice now but to bid you a tearful adieu, may you find solace n respect in the vast ocean of Indian diaspora.

We now know that Kashmiri Pandits are as always (read report by peace) taking sides with the oppressor n therefore it is dawning upon moderate suppressed Kashmiris that Pandits can now never be our brothers again after drinking up so much of our blood.

Like the Jewish elite, you will always try n come back to your promised land and maybe you will be successful one day but remember......u will always have to deal with the peasants on the ground. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:58 am

[quote="Chinaar"]

Brother, those are all anecdotal examples that you are providing. What I am talking about is large scale problems that are unique to your community in J&K. Sikhs and Sunnis are your neighbors in Kashmir Valley and may have gone along due to personal relationships. However, there is zero support for your so called freedom movement among the Buddhist or the Shias in Kargil who have intermarried with the Buddhists, or the Sikhs, or the Hindus in Jammu, or the Kashmiri Pandits and this is why Leh, Jammu, Ladhak, Kargil are free from your so called "opression". Nobdy wants a part of your sectarian religious freedom movement.

Here are two links for your consumption:

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990726/ige26020.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/776167.stm
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PostSubject: Re: KASHMIR: ANOTHER PALESTINE by Reshmi Sehgal   Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:06 am

Anon's offending statements were deleted for lack of reliable sources to back them up.

The rules of this forum are plain and simple. Hindutva agents are hell bent on re-inventing the truth, and the fact of the matter is that not a single Kashmiri Pandit was threatened to leave their homes.

The total reported deaths of PAndits is less than 250. Which are sad and tragic nonetheless.

This forum is meant to get the facts straight not be an accomplice in propagating lies.

My warning was plain and simple. If you claim otherwise, provide reliable sources to back up your claims. Failing to provide reliable sources for any outrageous claim will result in those posts being deleted.
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PostSubject: Kashmir and Palestine   Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:38 am

@ Hated-indian.

Once again, you have hijacked the topic that was being discussed.....but i will still answer your rhetoric.

1) In the links that you have provided, I do not see any mention of these people not favouring a self -determination. Many Kashmiri muslims work in the police, BSF as well as CRPF ( Rozee roti ka sawal hai) so if people in Kargil join the Indian army, whats the big deal. My very own uncle fought the 1965 war against China. He was a Lieutenant in the Indian army and always maintained that he fought to protect Kashmir and as long as we don't have our own forces, we have no choice but to join the forces which are available. Something very similar to hundreds of thousands of Indians fighting for the British in World War I and II. A lot like the Nepalese in the Indian Gurkha regiment.

2) Thousands of people in Azad Kashmir have joined the Pakistan army (the enlistment in Indian occupied J&K is miniscule when you compare it with POK), What words of wisdom do you have for them???

3) The Shias of Kashmir are a valiant people and have been in the forefront of our freedom struggle. Infact unlike the Sunnis, Shias do not believe in non-violent struggles. To make things worst for you.....just google Hizballah or Hizbollah in kashmir and all your nightmares will come true.

Do check this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3060961.stm

http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0809266180171132.htm

Anyways....hated-Indian......continue your tirades, I find them both funny and cunning at the same time.
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