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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:23 pm

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Perhaps this will bring some sanity to the question of mass graves:
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/thousands-lost-kashmir-mass-graves

To summaries:
1. Not more than thousand or so individual graves have been discovered.
2. Indian government claims these graves belong to terrorists whose bodies were not claimed, cross border infiltrators, and foreign terrorist.
3 Kashmir separatists claim these are bodies of innocent civilians killed for no reason.

Depending upon your biases, you can decide for yourself if these are terrorist graves or innocent civilian graves. Apparently, the term "mass grave" is used here for shock value only , not to reflect reality.
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Anon
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PostSubject: perspectives   Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:59 pm

dear ather,
The State Human rights Commission does not have the list of 40000 dissapearence cases. I thought you knew already, being in the middle of it all, as you say. Maybe you havent had the opportunity of visiting that office so far. Let me tell you, in that office there are a lots of individual applications alleging dissapearences, many that have yet to be investigated, some being traced to POK, some to nepal, and some lost and found. There is no reference to any mass graves found that have not been registered for investigation by the state authorities. You may not prefer to accept that at this stage, because of the present incensed passions about azadi, and I would understand that as a human reaction.. but my friend, India is not like some other countries where you can permanently hide a mass grave. A reported Mass grave is too serious a matter to push beneath the carpet. Even the 'nationalistic media' of india and its 'war machine' can not hide it in today's world. If you would care to look back, you will certainly find many reported 'custodial deaths' have been investigated and prosecuted. Many police officers have been arrested, even the army is not spared. Remember exhumation of graves at Akingam, Anant nag, Srinagar and else where? And these were alleged custodial deaths....not mass graves. I dont condone these deaths, because its the life of a human being, irrespective of the fact whether it is a hindu muslim or anyone else, and while some perpetrators have been punished, there are others in judicial cutody as well. In the same token, I cannot disregard the senseless killings perpetuated by 'freedom fighters' on hapless civilians of J&K and elsewhere. Can you? How come you guys never have a word to say about that? Is it because it doesnt go down your throats? Or is it because you dont have tme for other religions? They are not god's creations? But maybe you will not prefer to agree with me because its something you don't want to hear. I understand that.
My dear friend, do not get too swayed by a few processions. I've seen them all happen. I was there saving you from your own brethern who turned against you and your cause. Dont tell me about air conditioned rooms and national media. A successful freedom struggle requires character, selflessness and honesty. It need people who dont sell out and people who dont use the movement as a tool to build their own personal empire. Sadly, you guys have none of those. Dont ask me for proof because I shall give you all the proof in sequence...and that will be something you dont want to see
regards
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:47 pm

dear anon brother... its difficult to come to any conclusion between u and me regarding mass graves or custodial deaths coz those things have not been investigated..few cases had been investigated last year regarding custodial deaths annd ur version of punishment is transfers because an army man or a jawan cannot go through trial in kashmir because of ARMED FORCES SPECIAL POWERS ACT..this act gives the power to an ordinary jawan to kill a person even on suscpicion which often results in misuse of the act which dosent happen in kashmir only but at any place which is either a conflict or war zone..i understand that much..
...these things can be discussed only after furnishing strong proof and investigation....
....but my dear brother things which can be proved on account of figures and statistics can be proved here..u still havent supported ur claim of how a kashmiri survives on indian taxpayer neither have u compared j&k's tax payers with other states...l am still waiting for that..
....and its clear u dnt even want to read the report regarding the mass graves..u still want to defend urself with stories i dnt mind sir....
....i cnt argue against fiction...i hope u open ur mind and eyes open one day (it reminds me of the name of an english movie...eyes wide shut..)
regards
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PostSubject: india ranks 120   Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:41 pm

India ranks 120 in Press Freedom Index

BILAL HUSSAIN


Srinagar, Aug 28: At a time when the world talks about freedom of press, people in Kashmir have been restricted to go through the dailies or watch news and current affairs programme on local channels. Due to curfew, local newspapers have not hit the stands and TV channels have stopped airing their programmes since Monday morning. It's days now since the international media watchdog, Reporters Without Borders, called upon Government of India to lift the restrictions on media in Kashmir. The state government on Thursday came up with a statement denying that any restriction has been placed. Reacting to this, a spokesperson of Reporters without Borders told Greater Kashmir said, "Of course, the areas affected by press freedom violations are Kashmir and North East states. He informed that in 2007, India was at the 120 rank on 169 countries in press freedom index by RSF. The index measures the state of press freedom in the world. It reflects the degree of freedom that journalists and news organizations enjoy in each country, and the efforts made by the authorities to respect and ensure respect for this freedom. According to the report by RSF Israel (Israeli territory) was at 44, Kosovo was at 60 rank and Iceland stood at the top rank. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and impart information and ideas through any media regardless of frontiers. "We are being restrained from serving our people with the correct and updated news," said reporter, Umar Manzor with Wadi news channel. "I had to go through 15 check points before reaching office. The manner CRPF personnel treated me was cruel," said Gowhar Ahmad, a reporter with a newspaper. The Indian Constitution, while not mentioning the word "press", provides for "the right to freedom of speech and expression" (Article 19(1) a). The government claimed that reports broadcast by certain stations violated the Cable Television Network (Regulation) Act 1995. Many journalists in the Press Enclave say that government had trampled over this right. Journalists on Monday staged demonstration here. "Give us freedom of work, let the press be free," they said.
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PostSubject: perspectives   Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:14 am

Dear Ather,
There are 2 reasons why I prefer not to close my eyes to the others point of view. One, because I'll be a self deluding fool who will never see the truth, and second, I will be undemocratic if I can't tolerate the point of views of others. So whatever I say is not just because there is a verbal battle I have to win always. It is more about getting the truth to speak for itself.
On 'how a kashmiri survives on the Indian tax payers money', you shall soon have it, as you may well understand that getting the national statistics takes time, and then you wouldnt be satisfied if I just wrote down the general figures here, would you?
I agree with you on the Special Forces Enhanced Powers Act, it does give a wide range of powers to the forces to deal with terrorism. If misused, it can cause havoc. I dont argue that there have been many occassions where the act was used un judiciously. In many cases, as you would know, the forces have accepted mistakes and proceeded against their own men more harshly in some cases and quickly than the civil judiciary, who are toothless without evidence. I would not be surprising you if I tell you that in many occassions it is this army only which came to your rescue at times when you were fed up of your freedom fighters, both locals and 'guests', and when there were natural calamaties. When villagers secretly came and asked for their deployment in their villages so that that can move about. I will not talk about your popular representatives or ours, who formed the kashmir policy. Lesse said about them the better, because that would be opening a pandora's box. My friend, it takes fire to fight fire... we all know that... You have to realise WHO brought the forces as well as the Act in. No one wants to die. Holds true fro both sides. Accept it or not.
I could tell you more about the perspective of mass gaves, but I choose not to because I understand its a human issue, and even if I qoute figures, I will be seen as insensitive. Im not saying that innocent people didnt die...its sad.. but thats what war is all about my friend. There have been deaths on either side of the divide, and humans will be humans whether living or dead.
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PostSubject: Reply to Anon   Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:29 am

Quote :
A successful freedom struggle requires character, selflessness and honesty. It need people who dont sell out and people who dont use the movement as a tool to build their own personal empire. Sadly, you guys have none of those. Dont ask me for proof because I shall give you all the proof in sequence...and that will be something you dont want to see

Well first of all let me tell you that the present movement is not hostage to any leader. People have themselves come on to the streets and started protesting. There were protests going on even when there was no call given by any leader. In fact the whole movement started without the support of any leader. The people today are not following these leaders but they are following the people. People today are supporting them only because they are pushing forward the people's movement.
As far as the proof regarding building of their own personal empire is concerned, we would certainly like to see it. Common, do not hesitate. Bring the proof on. May be this is the only way you can help us.
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PostSubject: perspectives   Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:11 am

dear ather

About 'how kashmir is eating into the indian taxpayers money'. Consider the following figures for 2008-09 for a start.

Share of Central Taxes- 11% (what the centre gets back)
State's taxes- 14% (remains in the state)
Own non tax- 6%
Capital reciepts- 17%
CENTRAL GRANTS- 52%


On how it is spent, consider the following:

Salaries- 30%
Capital expenditure- 34%
Pensions-5%
Power-10%
security- 3%
Interest- 9%
Others- 9%

What proof could be better than the official webste of the J&K finance department. Please click on the following:

Bottom line- 52 % of your budget comes from the govt of India.

more t follow

regards
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PostSubject: reply to guest   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:10 am

Quote :
Well first of all let me tell you that the present movement is not hostage to any leader.

It will be futile if I comment. Let the future unfold the truth. As far as I know, no movement can sustain without and ideology and a leader who executes it on ground. Someone who is central to people's aspirations, around whom they can rally. Kashmir has many such leaders on whose command people can either proceed to muzzafrabad or lal chowk. No doubts about that.

Quote :
As far as the proof regarding building of their own personal empire is concerned, we would certainly like to see it. Common, do not hesitate. Bring the proof on. May be this is the only way you can help us.

Why is it that you guys want to hear things that you already know! Come on, youve already discussed all of your leaders personal assets, havala transactions, and misappropriation of funds meant for orphans, so many times amongst yourselves. Maybe you dont want to discuss these things in public places, but come on, this is the web and nobody knows who you are! Still if you would rather have an outsider lay out the goodies for your benefit, I shall certainly oblige you in my next post, as it is rather late in the day.
Only You can help youselves, not me, not any to know what to choose. If you dont already know what is good for you after 18 years, then most likely than never, you will never know.
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PostSubject: reply to anon   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:10 am

@anon
Quote :
They dont also understand why a proud kashmir nation still buys indian goods, conducts trade with indians, enjoy subsidies offered by the indian government to their tourism ventures in kashmir and elsewhere in the indian country, send their children to india for education, buy properties and businesses in india ..literally eat out of the indian taxpayers money and claim fundamental rights given to its citizens by the indian constitutiont, travel on indian passports, take part in Indian elections and form coalitions with indian national political parties etc etc...

Let's go through them one at a time:

-Proud Kashmir nation still buys Indian goods, conducts trade.

The underlying meaning suggests that if Kashmiris were proud, we would stop buying Indian goods and bring India to its knees! This is such a naive point for you to make anon. The one common answer to all the naive points you made is that we do not have a choice. Just as Israel has made Gaza into one huge prison, with all the exit points controlled by Israel, similarly India has kept Kashmiris imprisoned with our other trade route through Muzaffarabad sealed. If we stop buying Indian goods, the Indians would retaliate, and our horticulture crops would suffer. I can see you claim in your false arrogance that Kashmir is after all dependant on Indian markets to sell our produce. Again the answer is that once you stop imprisoning us and let us trade freely with the rest of the world, we would rather sell our products to the rich nations of the middle-east rather than your impoverished country of India.

enjoy subsidies offered by the indian government to their tourism ventures in kashmir

India uses our land for their military operations without paying any rent; our roads are half-covered by these monstrous bunkers. The electricity for their CRPF housings is stolen, and they dont pay for any of the power, water or any utilities they use. If we calculate the rent for this prime real estate, and for using these utilities, the fact that India pays for some development is judt a fraction of the amount it owes us in rent and fees.

send their children to india for education, buy properties and businesses in india

There are always a fraction of the population which appeases the occupiers. Are you suggesting that no indians went to UK during the British rule in India?

eat out of the indian taxpayers money

Like I mentioned, when we sit down and do the books, it will turn out that you owe us billions more for occupying our lands for housibg the Indian military/CRP here. In anycase, just leave Kashmir and let us be on our own, you and your taxpayers money are not welcome here.

travel on indian passports

Are you serious? I hope you are not a fourth grader! What other choice do we have? If kashmiris were somehow given an option to either travel on kashmiri passports or Indian passports, which one would they prefer? It's as if we have any other choice but to use your pathetic passports.

take part in Indian elections and form coalitions with indian national political parties
there is a small section of kashmiris who are pro-india - no doubt about that. An overwhelming majority is pro-independence. keeping this majority hostage for the sake of the minority pro-india people is undemocratic. something that the sham-of-a-democracy, India would never understand. Your rule in Kashmir is illegal, immoral, and nothing short of tyranny.
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Anon
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PostSubject: perspectives   Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:09 pm

dear guest,
I will take the points made by you one by one:

Quote :
The underlying meaning suggests that if Kashmiris were proud, we would stop buying Indian goods and bring India to its knees! This is such a naive point for you to make anon. The one common answer to all the naive points you made is that we do not have a choice. Just as Israel has made Gaza into one huge prison, with all the exit points controlled by Israel, similarly India has kept Kashmiris imprisoned with our other trade route through Muzaffarabad sealed. If we stop buying Indian goods, the Indians would retaliate, and our horticulture crops would suffer. I can see you claim in your false arrogance that Kashmir is after all dependant on Indian markets to sell our produce. Again the answer is that once you stop imprisoning us and let us trade freely with the rest of the world, we would rather sell our products to the rich nations of the middle-east rather than your impoverished country of India.

Isn't that what you have all along been dreaming for? Bring india to it knees? Such a surprise that you seem to know what will bring india to its knees, and yet don't let that happen. Calling people names wont help your cause my friend. Nor will anger or indignation. Nor will hate. You may call me a fourth grader or whatever, it doesnt matter because I understand the anguish of not being able to call a spade a spade. You are worried that your Horticulture crops would suffer because indians would retaliate! So its all about money, is it not my friend? Maybe a huge economic package then from India would change your opinion about azadi... as has been happening in the past. And no, I am not arrogant. Arrogance is symptomatic of failure. I am just being realistic. My words are based on ground realities, and not some ephemeral flight of the mind, where everything is perfect and angels play their harps. By the way, what stops you from dealing with rich nations and middle east even now. Is there any trade restriction for kashmiris on exports? Kindly let me know if there is, so that we all know and upgrade our knowledge. And by the way, just for the information of people who maybe are not well versed with the dynamics of markets, the 'impoverished country of india' is the number 2 market for all world, and that includes the richest of the rich nations. But you know that already, dont you. You are just so filled with hate that it clouds your reasoning all the time.
If you think India has imprisoned you, you are wrong. You have imprisoned yourself in a self created delusion. You find it hard to adjust to different cultures. Your ideology and fears have left you isolated. On the flip side, maybe you all will find peace when you are really liberated, mentally. On the territorial side, it seems impossible for now, realistically speaking. But at least I shall hope for that day to come, its the least I can do, and I hope I am alive till then to see it happen.

Quote :
India uses our land for their military operations without paying any rent; our roads are half-covered by these monstrous bunkers. The electricity for their CRPF housings is stolen, and they dont pay for any of the power, water or any utilities they use. If we calculate the rent for this prime real estate, and for using these utilities, the fact that India pays for some development is judt a fraction of the amount it owes us in rent and fees.

Correction. Wherever the forces are stationed, they pay rent. Maybe some cases are under process, but trust you guys will forego your dues? Never! Maybe the rent is less, thats a point, but maybe its a point that you guys will negotiate with the authorities and get it? maybe a new package?
About power? Do you pay for the power that you use. The power that your government gets after getting it on loan basis from power grids in India, because your power generation capabilities are 10%. Thats because you dont know the meaning of hard work. All you think of is easy money in whatever you do. You dont even spare your brothers. Do you have electronic meters installed in the valley? Paying legitimate taxes is a concept unknown in Kashmir. You want every thing free. You want all rights of a civilized world, but refuse to do your duties.
Your rent and fees. Do you also include those 'Batta' buildings belonging to people who were made to leave your valley? Or are you only talking about some hotels at boulevard that were taken on rent by the state administration? Some of whom have been evacuated by the forces on directions of the government?

Quote :
There are always a fraction of the population which appeases the occupiers. Are you suggesting that no indians went to UK during the British rule in India?

That 'fraction' may be more than you estimate. I would say about 45% of your total population in J&K. Do you agree? Thats the mean average figures of the ballot, taking 59 years of electioneering process in J&K into account. Thats what confuses the indians. Even your hard liners took part in this 'indian exercise'. Remember MUF? And the way a democratic process was raped by your own power hungry leaders, some of whom are presently leadng you. You will incessantly put the blame on the 'center' and I wont spare them for their mistakes, but remember, they were your kind who sold their conscience and acted as merceneries. And there were more numbers of these elections before the advent of the gun culture. When kashmir was laden with the famous apple, saffron, foreign tourists, dunga parties, filmi shootings etc etc. This was the time when a cherry hawker would tell an 'indian tourist' to go and buy 'ber' if they couldnt afford cherry, and azadi was a thing furtherest from his mind. Was it that the dream of azadi was kinda postponed till the going was good? Is this the basic character behind azadi? I dont want to insult anyone here my friend, but you guys would confuse anyone! Just a cursory look at the educational institutions in India will show how many of your guys are enrolled there. We dont mind that at all. The youth is precious, and we considered kashmir as a part of us. You talk about a 'fraction' that appeases the 'occupiers'. What do you have to say about your separatist leaders, their children, their grandchildren who have been educated in the 'impoverished country of India', and are still studying there, imbibing its culture and way of life. Surely, you didnt mean your pro freedom and separatist leaders to be a part of the 'fraction' of appeasers that you were referring to? Did you? Ok, dont bewilder us more.

Quote :
eat out of the indian taxpayers money
please see my earlier post.


Quote :
Like I mentioned, when we sit down and do the books, it will turn out that you owe us billions more for occupying our lands for housibg the Indian military/CRP here. In anycase, just leave Kashmir and let us be on our own, you and your taxpayers money are not welcome here.

You may like to share the outcome of your research after you do the books. It will make more sense. My friend, we know by now that we are not welcome in kashmir. But dont worry, you all shall always be welcome, come what may.

Quote :
Are you serious? I hope you are not a fourth grader! What other choice do we have? If kashmiris were somehow given an option to either travel on kashmiri passports or Indian passports, which one would they prefer? It's as if we have any other choice but to use your pathetic passports.

A freedom struggle is not something where you make choices that are convenient to you. Your intent must be in conformity to your deeds. People who look for choices are basically fence sitters, not freedon fighters. Take it or trash it.

Quote :
there is a small section of kashmiris who are pro-india - no doubt about that. An overwhelming majority is pro-independence. keeping this majority hostage for the sake of the minority pro-india people is undemocratic. something that the sham-of-a-democracy, India would never understand. Your rule in Kashmir is illegal, immoral, and nothing short of tyranny.

What would you say to about 45 % of J&K people being pro-india? And maybe some more on the 'azad kashmir' side too. Last time they were stopped by pak army when they attempted to cross over this side. Some were shot. Please remember that this 'sham of a democracy' allows people in the valley to burn the indian flag, raise pakistani flags, uproot security bunkers, appear on television debates, have indians support the kashmir freedon cause, allow separatists to become members of the parliament and legislatures, sponsor their medical treatment, etc. Try this in other contries and you'll perfectly understand what I mean. Your accession to india has a legal base. It is not a forcible occupation, there fore its neither illegal, or immoral. Understand this, for your own sake. Yes it becomes hard for you because you guys often threaten its national security. You may call it your freedom movement and you may be right in your heart in calling it so. In the same token, india calls this movement as sedition and waging a war against the State. And thats something perfectly in tune to its constitution. Its a matter of perspective, thats the cold reality.

regards
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PostSubject: Anon   Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:53 pm

Sorry anon, you have not replied to my post. This is a reply to soluin's post. Where is the proof? You have said so many things in your posts (including this reply) which I don't agree with. I will have to make a list of them and reply them one by one. It'll take a little bit of time.
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PostSubject: dear anon brother   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:28 am

dear brother,
kindly correct me honestly if u are not a kashmiri pandit..because with the level of frustration and anger u write u have to be a kashmiri pandit...send me a private message if u hesitate..
ur replies were long and good ones for any pro-indian reader as i can see blindfolded patriotism in u a lot and i appreciate that..good going brother.. Shocked
....what to write,how much to write and what all should i explain..its war of words going right now which will bring no good to anyone...when u question about kashmiris getting education in india why dnt u question gandhi,nehru and quad-e-azam mohammad ali jinnah for the same(and i am sure u will question jinnah)....without educated people no freedom struggle will survive and would end just like french revolution(i am sure a clever person like u would know about french revolution)..
Quote :
I would not be surprising you if I tell you that in many occassions it is this army only which came to your rescue at times when you were fed up of your freedom fighters, both locals and 'guests', and when there were natural calamaties. When villagers secretly came and asked for their deployment in their villages so that that can move about.
i dnt doubt the statement but totally disagree with u...thats my opinion about it..and i will not ask u any proof regarding army coming to a kashmiri's rescue because any kashmiri will laugh on it...
i accept upon one thing that it is the wrong policies and wrong policy makers both in india and pakistan who are the real culprits of the kashmir mess..india does not want a kashmiri to boost his economy and pakistan wants to burn india with kashmir fire...and the sufferers are ordinary kashmiris..i would not put the blame on local politicians like farooq or shiekh abdullah or mufti sayed or sadiq or mir qasim because these are the people who were brought in the limelight and to power by the centre by a process known as "selection" in kashmir and "election" in the rest of the world...accept it or not thats a bitter truth..mufti sayed was the home minister when he signed the orders for special powers act for the army...they all sail the same boat..
Quote :
I could tell you more about the perspective of mass gaves, but I choose not to because I understand its a human issue, and even if I qoute figures, I will be seen as insensitive.
well brother every topic that we discuss here regarding kashmir is a human issue and not the issue of mass graves only so go ahead with ur perspectives because everyone can express himself/herself here because fortunatley it is not the indian media here but an independent webpage....and u can also quote figures here with obviously some reference..
as far as the point of bringing india to its knees is concerned i dnt think we can do that at present as india is a mighty challenge ahead of us unless something dramatic happens..world war 2 came to india's rescue..afghanistan came to all the independent russian states..something like that..maybe togather tamils,sikhs,kashmir,northeast can do such a dramatic and in ur own words i dnt mind if at present it is only a dream because to achieve something one needs to dream for it...
what kind of economic packages are u talking about...saudi company wanted to invest in kashmir for hydel projects, centre rejected it..last year reliance wanted to set up an info park in kashmir state government did not respond and a company like reliance will not wait forever...this is what i mean that all the policies and policy makers are wrong...and pls tell me which state does not get economic package..???..these economic packages are not the solution and there is no need for it if u sincerely harness the enormous economic potential that kashmir has..
Quote :
By the way, what stops you from dealing with rich nations and middle east even now. Is there any trade restriction for kashmiris on exports
do u want me to export my carpet or saffron or shawl to middle east via new delhi..give me a break..!!!
..i agree that india is a big market(i dnt know from where u ranked it at number 2)...are the rich nations trading with india only..or do u want kashmiris to trade with india only and not explore the world beyond its limits???
Quote :
If you think India has imprisoned you, you are wrong. You have imprisoned yourself in a self created delusion
the answer is in my next comment.....
Quote :
On the flip side, maybe you all will find peace when you are really liberated, mentally. On the territorial side, it seems impossible for now, realistically speaking. But at least I shall hope for that day to come, its the least I can do, and I hope I am alive till then to see it happen.
i agree with u that right now it seems practically impossible to liberate kashmir from the iron grip of india..no doubt about it but i pray to god and wish that ur prayers come true and i hope u along with me will see that rising sun in independent kashmir...thankyou again..
Quote :
Do you pay for the power that you use. The power that your government gets after getting it on loan basis from power grids in India, because your power generation capabilities are 10%.
and dnt make me laugh...u mean to say that a place which has five major rivers in a mountaineous region like this and all of which are snow fed having its natural velocity and average fall more than what it is indian plains has the potential for just 10% for hydro-electricity..hats off to u..no replies..yar yeh 10% ka figure tu laya kahan se..?????
Quote :
Do you have electronic meters installed in the valley? Paying legitimate taxes is a concept unknown in Kashmir
yes we do have and if u want proof u pls visit the valley urself..i pay my office and home electric bills every month...water bill every year...pay income tax and have already posted a write-up regarding tax-paying in kashmir...and yes pay telephone bills too..pls write if anything else???
Quote :
That 'fraction' may be more than you estimate. I would say about 45% of your total population in J&K. Do you agree?
yar i really want to know ki tu itney figures lata kahan se..yeh 45% kab aur kaise count kiya..i hope u are not from IB..seems funny btw..
Quote :
A freedom struggle is not something where you make choices that are convenient to you. Your intent must be in conformity to your deeds. People who look for choices are basically fence sitters, not freedon fighters. Take it or trash it.
i seriously trash it...didnt indians trade with the british or french before 1947...i would love u to answer that my brother..
Quote :
Please remember that this 'sham of a democracy' allows people in the valley to burn the indian flag, raise pakistani flags, uproot security bunkers, appear on television debates, have indians support the kashmir freedon cause, allow separatists to become members of the parliament and legislatures
the answer lies in my earlier comment where india ranks 120th in free press out of just 160 countries...and now u are talking brother..when u urself say that people in kashmir and i hope u are talking about a common kashmiri burn indian flags,uproot army bunkers and indians support the kashmir freedom cause then y do u just argue for the sake of argument that it is a seperatist movement by some section of the society..more than 10 lac people gathered in eidgah last to last friday..that cnt be a small section of the society..i know its hard to agree or accept it by an average indian that kashmiris want independence..every kashmiri writting here is a normal average kashmiri..nobody is a seperatist (as u call the kashmiri leaders so) here...people talk about atrocities by army,they talk about there wishes and aspirations about independence..then whats the harm in accepting it..would it undermine the democracy of india or its call for more than 62 years now that kashmir is an integral part of india..india has problems in kashmir,nrotheast..it dealt problems in punjab and tamil nadu..nobody can forget the gujrat riots..y is it that whenever something happens in assam everyone in india blames pakistan..i am not trying to potray pakistan as an angel..maybe its worse than india in some cases..but maybe there are problems in india itself with its adminstration and its polisies and with its leaders..now the indian media is slowly trying to connect SIMI with kashmir freedom struggle..no proof against SIMI and u ban it...its still under trial..on the other side u have naxal problems which again u are trying to mix it with pakistan..india has border problems with bangladesh,pakistan and china..now to say everyone is wrong and only india ir right will be nonsense..there is a fault of everyone...but y blame only one..i am not supporting anyone here but what i am trying to prove here is that even india has its shortcomings and is equally at fault..
........kashmir is under curfew for the past 6 days when all the processions and rallies a week before it were non-voilent..yes slogans were there but u cnt term them as voilence...it was slap on adminstration and on indian claims and its democracy when such huge gatherings were held and people in one voice were shouting for freedom..is it wrong my dear brother to demand what is ur right..??...but i understand the international pressure which is mounting on india...OIC condemned these killings by the army and india had to reply with that it is its internal matter...UNO's human rights commission condemned it day before yesterday and india took it seriously by saying that it is its internal affair and there is no need for interference...grow up dude..u are saying UN not to comment or interfere when kashmir is one of the oldest pending dispute wut UN..when u have UN peacekeepers here in kashmir...when u have UN resolutions on kashmir...
god help us all...
with regards
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PostSubject: request email (india improsined kashmiris)   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:32 am

this is an email which i received from one of my kashmiri brother...


Kashmir is bleeding and running out of blood, and it doesn't seem far when the life will cease to exist in the valley. Kashmir has been turned into the biggest prison around the world, with people being fired upon ruthlessly, only to kill by the India Forces. It's a shame on Indian State, which calls itself the biggest Democracy and a Secular state, and factually is turning Kashmir into a slaughter house. People are not allowed to move out of their houses, even if they are dying for medication.

I request every reader of this E-mail, to take it upon him as a moral duty to pass on the message of what's happening in Kashmir valley. And try to persuade the International community to help Kashmiri's, in this time of distress or be ready to see a complete genocide of Kashmiri's through various means.

Few of the things which I would like to bring into your notice are

1. Markets in Kashmir have run out of essentials commodities such as Milk, Bread, Vegetables and Rice. While the government claims of having enough stock, the cases of starvation have come up.

2. Baby food is also not available in the markets.

3. Hospitals have run out of medical stocks such as Cotton, Bandages and Life saving drugs. Not even the drugs like Paracetamol are available.

4. Patients and their attendants have been locked up in hospitals without food and other essentials. Even though the government claims otherwise.

5. More than 100 people have been killed in past few weeks. And injured are in thousands with most of them critically hurt with bullet shots.

6. The local electronic media has been dumped by the state authorities for bridging the communication gap between people of this state. Which helped them suffocate Kashmiri's a Little more.

7. The SMS service has been barred for at least a month now. Reasons still unknown.

8. The Newspapers no more hit the stands, while Local Newspaper offices have been locked in Kashmir for the obvious reasons that local journalists are not allowed to move even with curfew passes. Many of them were beaten to pulp and are admitted in various hospitals.

9. For Indian media, two bronze medals are worth more than people of Kashmir in totality. Not even the tickers run when less than ten people are killed.

It's the fourth Consecutive day of curfew in the state and people have run out of the supply of essential commodities. The two hour deal today left people more distressed with grocery stores running out of stocks. And people running back home empty hand, while the CRPF was whistling all through the time to create panic. Many in Kashmir for past few have been sleeping empty stomach, not because they don't have money but because they are an occupied nation. And have to suffer at the hands of Oppressor.

It seems if the international agencies do not come to rescue, people of Kashmir might succumb to starvation, leading to genocide which Indian state has been engaging itself, with for past 61 years now. I humbly request every one, Kashmiri or a Non-Kashmiri to do whatever is under his/her control to help people of Kashmir, through whatever way they can.

Regards

Irtif Lone.
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PostSubject: merey anon bhai..   Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:36 am

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Your accession to india has a legal base. It is not a forcible occupation, there fore its neither illegal, or immoral. Understand this, for your own sake.
..now if i may explain with references the accession of kashmir to india...u wrote something which shows ur stupidness sorry to say...
1)clause 4 or 5 of indan independence act states that all the agreements that the britishers have entered into with the indian independent states (princly states) become null and void after 14th and 15th of august 1947 respectively...this act automatically ends the dogra rule in kashmir on 14th august 1947..now one has to ask the legality of maharaja hari singh's sinitures (if any exists) on instrument of accession when his rule had automatically ended..in any case did a hindu ruler had the right, moral if not legal, to decide the fate of his subjects majority of which were muslims.in junagadh which was a mirror image of J&K(muslim ruler and hindu subjects), the government of india ruled that accession to pakistan is invalid stating that a muslim ruler had no right to decide the fate of his hindu subjects..and made kashmir an opposite case.
2)at the time of partition the princley states had the choice to either accede to india or to pakistan or sign a standstill agreement which would allow them to do trade and other exchanges with both the countries untill they decide there future course of action..maharaja signed the standstill agreement with pakistan but india refused to do so..the accession was legally invalid as it voilated the standstill agreement with pakistan.
3)the instrument of accession was conditional..if tomorrow there would have been a reference to the people which decided against accession to india, then acceptence by india of that accession would be cancelled.if not, then india would be denying the right of the people to decide..isnt india denying us that right??
4)and finally what about the promise made by pandit nehru regarding a referendum in J&K which would give the people of the state there right to decide there future???
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:41 am

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the 'impoverished country of india' is the number 2 market for all world

yes if you consider it being a dumping ground for the nuclear waste of developed nations, cheaply made israeli weapons and tonnes of refuse that the western world throws out. Then yes sure you are numberr one.

But we would rather sell our cash crops to the rich gulf states where we would get a prime price for our produce instead of haggling with the stingy and impoverished buyers of India.

Why dont we sell it at present you ask?

Open the Muzaffarabad road, our goods would easily be within the reach of the markets through Karachi.
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:52 am

@brother Ather
Quote :
maharaja signed the standstill agreement with pakistan but india refused to do so..the accession was legally invalid as it voilated the standstill agreement with pakistan

Brother Ather, this is a very great point. I have not seen it in this perspective before. Would you mind sharing more details about this, regarding what was involved in the standstill agreement with Pakistan and what it espoused.

What dates it was signed and what were the details of the agreement. (if you have all the information, otherwise I can do research in libarary also.)

I have read this before, especially in the letter that Hari singh wrote that accompanied the so-called instrument of accession.

Thsankyou brother
W/S
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PostSubject: for guest   Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:53 am

dear guest,
I apologise for the mistake. Hey listen, there is no problem if you don't agree. My posts are not meant to make people agree to my perceptions. I shall look forwards to your reply.
regards
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:37 am

dear ather,

Well if it makes so much of a difference to you to know my religion, you stand corrected, I am not a kashmiri pandit. And I a not IB either! You guys are paranoid, aren't you? You are right when you say I'm patriotic, there is no doubt in it. And to tell you something, I couldnt care less whether you got your azadi or not. You know whats best for you, you know where the shoe pinches and how. If you have a stomach ache, its your stomach and you know what you've eaten...you can prescribe your remedy. If your diagnosis is correct you have nothing to worry about, and our wishes are with you. If it doesnt work for you, then its your destiny, your fate , its what you pass on to your generations, not mine. You are right when you say that India should not mind giving kashmir valley away. Actually it wont make a difference, at the most we will be fighting terrorism on kashmirs borders instead of pakistans border as an independent kashmir would not have the militiary resources to prevent it even if they wanted, when even pakistan couldnt. I feel that instead of burning the indian flag , which is of no consequence now since you have made your point and gradually but surely indians across the country have been slapped out of their sleep, it would be a better idea if you guys convince pakistan for the plebisite, as was made mandatory in the UN resolution 60 years back.



Quote :
yes if you consider it being a dumping ground for the nuclear waste of developed nations, cheaply made israeli weapons and tonnes of refuse that the western world throws out. Then yes sure you are numberr one.

I dont see your comments as an educated response. I doubt you know what nuclear waste means, nor are you abreast with general knowledge. You are just acting like a cry baby. No point of further discussion


Quote :
But we would rather sell our cash crops to the rich gulf states where we would get a prime price for our produce instead of haggling with the stingy and impoverished buyers of India.

Why dont we sell it at present you ask?

Open the Muzaffarabad road, our goods would easily be within the reach of the markets through Karachi.

Can you write one sentence without the use of derogatory words? Anyways, you didnt reply to my question and avoided it. I doubt if you know what international trade is all about. Through Karachi? Your goods will travel 1500km by road to reach karachi, pay tariff to pakistan and then ship them to say, Dubai and pay their custom tariff? That will be one expensive apple or cricket bat. But Dubai or abu dhabi are rich countries. And hopefully they like apples and play cricket or wear pashmina shawls.

Quote :
..now if i may explain with references the accession of kashmir to india...u wrote something which shows ur stupidness sorry to say...

By the way, the word is stupidity. A better word would have been ignorance. Though I concede this point, I feel there is no point carrying on this discussion with you my friend. Hurling insults is a two way street. But it doesnt serve any purpose. It only symbolises intolerence and defeat. How appropriate,
good luck
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PostSubject: Reply to ANON   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:25 pm

@Anon
Quote :
Anyways, you didnt reply to my question and avoided it. I doubt if you know what international trade is all about. Through Karachi? Your goods will travel 1500km by road to reach karachi, pay tariff to pakistan and then ship them to say, Dubai and pay their custom tariff

Let me carry on with this since you mentioned about international trade and shipping through Karachi. So you think carrying our products 1500KM to Punjab or Delhi or any other Indian markets is more profitable than to ship it via Karachi to any of the gulf regions. Please enlighten us about the international trade laws that you are privy to and we have been ignorant of until now.

As far as I am aware, Dubai is a free port, and would not charge us tarrifs or customs on produce as long as it meets their import standards. Even if there were any duties or tarriffs, through trade agreements we could have those waived for our products - a small concession they would be willing to make for a fellow muslim country; and they sure like fruits just as the majority of humans all over the world do. You might also be interested to know that the whole gulf region is one of the biggest markets for our handicrafts as well.

Through bilateral trade agreements, we could persuade Pakistan to let our produce pass through their territory without paying any tarrifs. I dont foresee any objections on their side. This can only be done by an Independent Kashmir, and negotiated as a bilateral agreement.
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:57 pm

Quote :

Through bilateral trade agreements, we could persuade Pakistan to let our produce pass through their territory without paying any tarrifs. I dont foresee any objections on their side. This can only be done by an Independent Kashmir, and negotiated as a bilateral agreement.

Offcouse this is assuming that Pakistan, your fellow Muslim country, doesn't secede the rest of the Kashmir that it occupies to China like it did earlier with a portion of POK.
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PostSubject: anon brother   Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:16 pm

thankyou for correcting my mistake and it dosent matter to me if u are stupid or ignorant..ur knowledge seems little abour kashmir problem or kashmir history therefore it seems just a waste of time having a dialogue with u..
...i would rather be happy to carry forward the discussion if u would be able to furnish some light on the legality of the accession and if u would compare the tax returns and grants with other states and not just mentioning that of the state only and also the figures and ur views regarding mass graves...otherwise i feel its just twisitng of history and facts which u seem to be a master of....
regarding nuclear waste i agree with u and that was not my point of view in any case my dear "batta" brother..
u can live on with ur patriotic views and ideolgy when people in india have started talking about kashmiris right to decide his own future and the world acknowledges it(if u know about the recent comments from UN and OIC)..as i am writing news of one more person being killed in army's firing in downtown srinagar comes and i wonder why at all i am trying to convince a person here that india is at fault too and big time when he does not want to understand and accept facts on ground..if u are so stuck with ur ideology and patriotism then i feel for u and would not want u to come out of ur world of illusions and fantasies where u worship india and consider it as the best..those are ur views and i have mine but nobody can thrust his ideas and views on others...
regards..
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PostSubject: @Reporter   Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:08 pm

Quote :
Let me carry on with this since you mentioned about international trade and shipping through Karachi. So you think carrying our products 1500KM to Punjab or Delhi or any other Indian markets is more profitable than to ship it via Karachi to any of the gulf regions. Please enlighten us about the international trade laws that you are privy to and we have been ignorant of until now.

1. Punjab or Delhi is not 1500 kms from the valley, Karachi is.

2. Your cost input (fuel and transportation cost) in shipping to Delhi or Punjab should be 55% to 60% than shipping to Karachi by road.

3. Taking the UAE is example, a duty free port does not mean that you dont pay duty when the goods are freed for domestic consumpton. It means that the goods can me kept there, or fabricated there, with proper permit, within the zone, or if it awaits transhipment.

4. Custom tax waiver, so far, is only given in Dubai to goods manufactured or produced in the Gulf Cooperation Countries. For the rest, there is a proper tax structure in place with duties ranging fro 4% to 100%.

Thesse prcedures would have been privy to me only if I had enacted them. It just so happens that they are common knowledge.

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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:54 pm

@anon
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1. Punjab or Delhi is not 1500 kms from the valley, Karachi is.

2. Your cost input (fuel and transportation cost) in shipping to Delhi or Punjab should be 55% to 60% than shipping to Karachi by road.

Here is just one small fact that most Kashmiris are aware of, but sadly, people like yourself, who throw numbers around, try to twist these facts to mislead people. Or it could be that you are in fact ignorant of the facts. So here is your chance of educating yourself. (excerpt from this site)" As per some estimates, if the road is opened for trade, fruit growers can save around Rs.30 per 20 Kg. apple box on account of freight alone. Compared to Bombay Port, where the Kashmiri traders presently take the goods, the Karachi port is about 1200 kms nearer to Kashmir. In short, by taking the products to Karachi Port the apple industry alone is expected to save "around Rs.1400 crore on freight alone." Hence allowing the trade through Srinagar-Muzaffarabad route will make Kashmiri goods more competitive in the international market"(excerpt from this site)

Here is the distance between cities, so our produce can be shipped to the gulf region:

Through the seasonal banihal pass
Srinagar - Delhi : ~900 Kms (No port, so no use)
Srinagar - Bomaby : ~2300 Kms

Through the possible all-weather Jhelum valley road (muzaffarabad Road)

Srinangar - Karachi : ~1700 Kms

And then the markets of the Gulf regions are just across the Persian Gulf. Four times closer than what they are from Bombay. So I am not sure what trade laws and economy you are talking about, but this route seems more lucrative to Kashmiris.

I feel you are unaware of the use of the word "Privy" so please consult the dictionary; it certainly does not imply that you enacted the law; however, it certainly does mean, albeit sarcastically, that the Dubai government told you about the tariffs in secret.

There is no such 100% duty on produce that we are aware of - please provide sources. Even if there are some trivial fees for using the port etc; our independent Kashmiri government can have those waived. As I mentioned before, it will be a small concession the "muslim" government of Dubai will be willing to make for a fellow muslim country of Kashmir.


Last edited by Reporter on Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:30 pm

i am also very confused from where our fellow batta anon brother gets the numbers from...according to his estimates 45% of kashmiris are pro-indians and a region like kashmir has just 10% potential of producing hydro-electricity...he also wants to give the figures for the number of mass graves too but very humanly he dosent want to coz it is a human issue as if all other issues are in-human...grow up dude...
at the end of i decided its just a waste of time to reply to his posts..
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PostSubject: to my dear freinds ather and reporter   Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:17 am

Ok ok my friends, I got your point which indeed very well presented by reporter, and indeed had some valid points for my consideration! I accept that your statistics at last brought my knowledge to the correct perspective. Thank you. Thats what the forum is here for. There is no point of biting the head off the other person if you think he is wrong. Because if you do then it only goes to show that you are a bunch of uncivilized people. Ather gets a sort of a sadistic pleasure in using the word 'batta', because of some racial bias that he has grown up with and also because people here have refrained from calling him a 'hato'..thats unjust Very Happy



Quote :
I feel you are unaware of the use of the word "Privy" so please consult the dictionary; it certainly does not imply that you enacted the law; however, it certainly does mean, albeit sarcastically, that the Dubai government told you about the tariffs in secret.

That is exactly what I mean, and sarcastically too, that if I had written the law then I would have been privy to it, and would have been in my exclusive knowledge....which is not the case, and that all info that you ask of me regarding dubai custom duties is available for all to read. If you want proof go to the dubai customs website and maybe you will see it there with your own eyes printed in black and white , see for yourself, and be man enough to accept what you dont know.
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