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jannatek
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PostSubject: land transfer   Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:58 pm

You are mis informed my brother.we are not objecting to the usage of land by yatris infact they are using the same for more than 100 years and we are the people who are welcoming them and making arrangements for their safe journey.we are the people who are carrying them on our shoulders to the cave and I am surprised that not a single yatri from india is atleast telling the truth and keeping on silent.We were independent and are seeking independence from india then how come we will tranfer our own land to the non residents or non state subjects.No where you will see that the government of a country transfers land to the outsiders for managing some events.we can manage the things ourselves ,when we were capable for managing the same for more than 100 years why we could not do it now.Yatri is a tourism related activity then why our Tourism department cannot mange it,and I think they can do better then the so called shrine board
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harshu
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PostSubject: History of Kashmir   Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:07 pm

Hi Friends

If some is saying that I ndia does not treat minorities good it seems that the writere of the columns
does not history. Its Hindus who were deceived, cheated and the great Kashmir which is revered in all Hindu scriptures got converted into ISLAM.

Can any Kashmiri Muslim scholar deny that his ancestors were Hindus who were very much forward and later got converted into islam , better they know the reasons...

If history needs to be considered then please go through the ancient history too , before the advent of islam and you can find how a great country like India has lost its territory just it being a peacful community...

I am not against Islam , but the facts and the history also needs to be considered.

I hope that all my Kashmri friends might be knowing the history behind Kashmir's name...

If any Hurriat leader or any intellectual can reply me about the Muslim invasion and mass conversion of Hindu Pundits into islam and how the genertaions have forgotten their history , will be great.

Since every individual has right to practice his own faith in what ever they believe but dividing a country on basis of religion which already has happened for past 2000 years in this great country with a rich heritage I guess no person who has moral values or who is a "man" can accept...

Please think about the history and act....
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KMR
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:25 am

Quote :
Kashmiris Demanding Independence
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN –

SRINAGAR, India (AP) — Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.

Pakistan's statement drew a sharp rebuke from India, which called the comments "deeply objectionable."

More than six weeks of unrest in India's part of Kashmir have pitted the region's Muslim majority against its Hindu minority and left at least 34 people dead, many of them protesters shot during violent clashes with police and soldiers. Villages have been attacked, police stations torched and, in at least one town, security forces have been ordered to shoot on sight any protesters violating a curfew.

The latest death came Thursday when police opened fire on protesters in Srinagar, Kashmir's main city, killing at least one and wounding three others, police and hospital officials said.

The trouble was grown out of a dispute over a government plan to transfer land to a Hindu shrine in Kashmir.

Another man, a Hindu, committed suicide Thursday in Jammu, Kashmir's only Hindu-majority city, to protest the scrapping of the land transfer. He was the second Hindu to kill himself in protest.

The spiraling unrest has unleashed pent up tensions between Kashmir's Muslims and Hindus and threatened to snap the bonds between India and its only Muslim-majority state. There are also growing fears that the violence could drive a wedge between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India, where Hindu nationalist political parties have been organizing rival protests and calling for the government to give the land back to the shrine.

The latest protests, which began overnight in Srinagar and continued Thursday, were sparked by a rumor that security forces were breaking into houses and beating up women and children.

"This is a question of our honor, come out of your homes," said announcements played over the public address systems at various mosques in Srinagar.

People in Srinagar — a mountain town once famed for its cool summer weather and the houseboats that ply the lake in its center — responded by the thousands, pouring into the streets and chanting "Long Live Pakistan!" and "We Want Independence!"

Perhaps more than anything seen in the last six weeks, it is those sentiments that are most worrying to India.

Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since 1948, and is at the center of their six-decade rivalry.

There is also a long history of separatist movements in New Delhi's part of the region. Most were peaceful until 1989 when a bloody Islamic insurgency began. The insurgents want to see India's part of the region merged with Pakistan or given independence.

The rebellion that has so far killed an estimated 68,000 people still festers, and India accuses Pakistan of aiding the insurgents — a charge Pakistan denies.

On Wednesday, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry called for the United Nations to step in and curb "the gross violation of human rights" in Kashmir.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf followed that up a few hours later, saying: "I strongly condemn the human rights violation and the suppression on these oppressed people."

India's reaction was swift and angry.

"To call for international involvement in the sovereign internal affairs of India is gratuitous, illegal and only reflects reversion to a mind-set that has led to no good consequences for Pakistan in the past," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement released soon after Musharraf's remarks.

On Thursday, former Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif — a key power broker in its ruling coalition — said the matter was of deep concern to Pakistan. "This matter of Kashmir is not India's internal affair, it is as much a matter for Pakistan as it is for Kashmiris."

Meanwhile, two international human rights groups — Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International — demanded in separate statements that India stop police and soldiers from using guns against protesters unless the officers lives were being threatened
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Farhan
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PostSubject: Glimpse of India Brutality   Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:59 pm

Show me smiliar incidents in Jammu during their protests, this is just a glimpse, thanks to indianexpress at least!..

-------
Police, CRPF take their Valley crackdown to even ambulances, hospitals

Muzamil Jaleel

Posted online: Friday, August 15, 2008 at 0148 hrs IST

Srinagar, August 14
Battling angry and violent crowds on the streets, the police and the CRPF have even targeted ambulances ferrying the injured and, in one case, they opened fire at the entrance to a hospital’s casualty ward.

While Director General of the J&K Police Kuldeep Khuda has said that there will be a probe, CRPF spokesman Prabhakar Tripathi denied the charge. “No such incident has come to our notice,” he said. This comes the day Inspector General, CRPF, S K Jain was shunted out of the Valley.

“These three days have been extremely challenging for us,” said Dr Muzaffar Ahmad, Director of Health Services, Kashmir. “Our 40 ambulances were attacked across Kashmir and most them have broken windscreens. Seven of our ambulance drivers were hurt as well.” The director of Srinagar’s Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences (SKIMS) hospital, Dr Abdul Hameed Zargar, said that one of the hospital’s ambulances is still missing. “We are yet to trace it,” he said. “There have been several attacks on our ambulances by the security forces”.

Consider the following encounters:

• On August 11, J-K Police personnel fired tear-smoke shells inside the casualty ward of the Shri Maharaja Hari Singh (SMHS) hospital in Srinagar. “There was a rush of wounded and our doctors and paramedic staff was busy treating them when tear-smoke landed inside the casualty ward,” said SMHS Medical Superintendent Dr Wasim Qureshi. “We had to stop work for some time.

There was a lot of inconvenience to both patients and our staff. This should not happen”. He said that after this incident, hospital attendants were enraged and ransacked CRPF bunkers in the hospital premises.

• On August 12, an ambulance (JK01C 5641) carrying protestors with bullet wounds from Bandipore was attacked at Parimpora by the CRPF. “We were carrying two critically wounded persons in the ambulance,” Dr Asif Ahmad told The Indian Express. “When we reached Parimpora, there was a huge procession. We stopped. The people cleared the way for us. Then the CRPF persons were standing a few dozen metres away,” he said. “When we were close to them, they opened fire on the ambulance. Within seconds, a few CRPF men pounced on the ambulance and started hitting everybody inside. They even assaulted the wounded. One of the wounded died there”. Ahmad said he jumped from the vehicle and rushed inside a house for safety. “A stone hit ambulance driver Mohammad Shaban Para and he was seriously injured”. Director Health Services Dr Muzaffar Ahmad confirmed the incident. “Our people had a close shave there,” he said.

• On August 12, CRPF personnel stopped an ambulance ferrying wounded protestors at Rambagh on the Airport road in Srinagar. The CRPF contingent attacked an ambulance with rifle-butts in front of a senior officer Commandant P S Rajora, broke its windshield and assaulted the wounded persons and the attendants in front of a large media crew including this correspondent. “I am unable to do anything. I am trying to stop them (the men),” Rajora told The Indian Express soon after the ambulance and the injured patients were rescued by personnel of the J-K Police, who rushed to intervene. “We were only trying to impose the curfew”.

• On August 12, J-K Police and CRPF men barged into the premises of the District Hospital in Baramulla. “They fired inside the hospital,” Dr Nisar Ahmad, an orthopaedic surgeon at the hospital told The Indian Express. “We rushed out of the Operation Theatre. We were frightened for our lives”.

• On August 12, police and CRPF men stopped an ambulance and beat patients and their attendants after dragging them out during a pitched battle with protestors at Qamarwari in Srinagar city.

• On August 13, an ambulance of the Jhelum Valley hospital — an associate hospital of the SKIMS — was fired upon by the CRPF near Boatman Colony in the city outskirts while it was ferrying a patient with bullet wounds. “The CRPF men first opened fire at our ambulance and then charged in and broke the windscreens with rifle-butts. Then they started beating us, even the patient was hit,” said Mushtaq Ahmad, in charge of immunization at the Jhelum hospital. “There was an Inspector accompanying them”. Driver of the ambulance Mohammad Shafi said: “It has never happened in these years.”

• On August 13, the J-K Police opened fire at the entrance of the Casualty ward of the SMHS hospital in Srinagar, where a large angry crowd of relatives of the injured had gathered. “The people are infuriated and when they saw a police vehicle inside the hospital compound, they attacked it. The police opened fire. But nobody was injured,” SMHS Medical Superintendent Dr Qureshi said.

DGP Khuda said that they were investigating all incidents of attacks on ambulances and hospitals. Speaking to The Indian Express, Inspector General of J-K Police S M Sahai said that the police have taken up the August 12 Rambagh incident with authorities at the highest level. “After we got reports that an officer was there, we have already taken action,” he said. “We are probing every case where we received reports of excesses”.

Suicide in Jammu, 1 dies in Valley firing

• One more person killed in Srinagar firing to stop protestors from attacking police station

• CRPF IGP Sunil Kumar Jain shifted out of Srinagar

• Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti member Balwant Raj Sharma commits suicide. Police said he turned up at strike venue in Kathua after swallowing poison

• PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti on dharna outside Raj Bhawan to demand reopening of Muzaffarabad road for trade, revocation of Armed Forces Special Powers Act

• Curfew relaxation increased in Srinagar, Ganderbal, Budgam, Kulgam, Anantnag, Kupwara

• New Delhi reacts sharply to OIC Secy Gen’s comments on J&K, says the grouping has “no locus standi” in India’s internal affairs
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Mir
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:19 am

Why isnt the world concerned about the human rights violations in the valley committed by India?
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peace
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PostSubject: indian media and indian people   Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:12 am

the role of the indian media in present crisis or even before it should be appreciated..they have covered the whole incident very patriotically according to the wishes and aspirations of new delhi..as the present crisis is going on,the rest of the world has better knowledge about the situation in kashmir than the indian people..it is very heartening to see the partriotism of the indian people..they have blindfolded themselves and dnt want to see anything and even if they do they wont want to agree with it.i am not talking about all the indians.an average indian dosent even know what the problem is..the indian civil society and the media made hue and cry when the issue of mass graves in iraq came or those torture chambers and saddam hussain was compared to adolf hitler..i ask those same people where are there voices when the issue of mass graves came up in kashmir..again an average indian dosent even know about the issue..and again the indian media has to be appreciated for there role...they have put the role of journalists and the whole profession to utmost shame and disgust..the life of an ordinary kashmiri is losing its value after each passing day..we are being tortured worse than what hitler would have done..i am sure there are more graves in kashmir than what would have been in iraq during saddam's time...after all this an ordinary kashmiri still stands up on his feet and is ready to fight the mighty and challenging indian state..as a region we are no match to mighty and challenging indian state but as a united nation we are a force..i dnt see azadi/independence round the corner but we are not going to achieve it in one night..maybe i will not be able to see the light of independent kashmir but maybe my children will..those who call kashmiris as terrorists should think twice because then they are calling gandhi,nehru and others as terrorists too..i am sure had british unleashed such terror on indian people gandhi would have travelled back to south africa..its the will of the kashmiris and there desire to see united kashmir as an independent state and inshallah one day we will..these sacrifices cnt go waste..tomorrow maybe i will not be alive to write this blog but i am sure someone else would be in my place and the struggle for truth,honesty and dignity would continue...
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MIR
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:23 am

@ather
thankyou for bringing up excellent points.
I will add some more later
great write up bro
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Farhan
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PostSubject: ghandi gari   Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:15 pm

..i am sure had british unleashed such terror on indian people gandhi would have travelled back to south africa..

or he would have decided to join Subhas Chandra Bose, this is what India is pushing us to do & this is what is repeating again.
In past we also made protests and followed Ghandigari .. But we were pushed so hard that peaceful Kashmiri choose gun to knock doors. And today again.. i see myself back in early 90s, we are making peaceful protests they beat ruthlessly, we throw pebbles they are throwing bullets.
Honestly in past i had many questions about Gun but today i am getting very quick answers to all those questions.
I know people love Ghanadigari but as brother mentioned .. this is height of brutality and aggression.. When people are pushed, they don’t bother you call them terrorist, islamists or extremists..
Development seems to me rubbish when i see father shouldering young sons coffin, sisters wailing for brothers, young widows in my neighborhood.
May Allah give us courage, patience, guidance and save us from the merchants of blood.
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Srinagar
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PostSubject: what a debate   Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:33 pm

I was just wondering that how many people of kashmiri orgin have taken to either blogging or made some uselful forums , Its looks like if our IT sector is given a boost Our valley will sar-pass silkon valley , anyways i will be quite regular to this forum. Hey admin gr8 job, it helps in clearing some haze. I will take on the abusers later lol! .
Kashmir Zainabad.
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Srinagar
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PostSubject: Gr8 show of People   Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:37 pm

Just to add, today it was like the maximum. All u indianz sittng ther ..Ours is the real democracy. ( wallaha)
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peace
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PostSubject: grand processions   Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:44 pm

the scenes that everyone of us witnessed today is unseen..the day in my locality started with preparing refreshments for the people in the processions ..we started making banners demanding plebiscite which is the unfulfilled promised of our dear "chacha nehru"...the first procession came around 10:30 and it continued till around 2 pm...the scenes which i witnessed today are unmatched..i am sure the gathering today and the enthusiasm of the people could easily beat gandhi's dandiya march...the gathering would easily cross 10 lakh...people came out on the streets everywhere...police was not seen anywhere not even the CRPF...the most surprising fact is that a crpf truck got stranded when a huge gathering was coming from the other side and people in the procession started to get voilent at the stranded crpf truck and that is when some locals practically hid the military vehicle in nearby house for there safety for nearly 2 hours...we saved those military men who are eveready to kill the innocent unarmed kashmiri people..this is brotherhood and secularism in my view..i think here is a lesson for the largest democracy in the world which india claims to be one...as i am writing this blog news of one more truck driver who was brutally beaten by a mob in jammu died in AIIMS hospital today...this is communalism for me..not even a single throne was pelted today and the police and crpf could not risk there own lives by shooting at the protesters..this is a new revolution in kashmir's freedom movement when there are no guns with people..with just banners and sticks they are out on the road ready to sacrifice anything..women and children were also seen in the procession...
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JAn
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:29 am

cheers SEA OF PEOPLE cheers
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Farhan
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PostSubject: Overwhelming Joy n Tears   Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:53 pm

fellow countrymen,
GOOD DAY,
Today ...you can call me Mr.Jolly! rather just Farhan. My eyes yet to believe & senses yet to accept..These marches moved me & strengthened my courage. I used to see this now in my dreams only, may be reflections of early 90s. But today it is much more than 90s.
Today people are enough mature, yesterday who were trying to be good Indians among us today I see them returining back as Kashmiri. My uncle turned to National Conference by excusing that this TEHREEKH gave us nothing but trust me last week he & his son together were battling with police and CRPF for several days and broke his knee. I am proud of my young brothers; all the time in past we were wondering how shall we convey our message to them as every Indian agency from cinema to TV & of course their media is so biased & ‘communal'.
Since more than a decade they are pushing to Indianize Kashmiri, they supported everything what can make our moment weak & deprive us from our religion and morals, corruption touched new heights, drug mafias running under police protection, brothels running under Indian agencies, instigation of cinemas with interest free loans, securing liquor shops, branding us terrorists, labeling us islamists, extremists etc, all in all .. left no stone unturned.
But today 1 march turned tables, I am crying for the martyrs of last week but I still remember our unheard 10-20 killings every day since 18yrs. Trusting India would be our repeated mistake, I am monitoring Indian newspapers, I swear I have never seen such a biased view. Hindustantimes is covering “jail Baro” protest from Jammu but they heard nothing about 8lac crowd across the TUNNEL!
What I understand we need to open all fronts and confront esp. electronic media .. in today’s times everyone can contribute just 1 video clip can turn tables and we have good examples of this from other parts of world.
Let us continue & contribute, educate & agitate; again let me salute my fellow Kashmiris esp youngsters who were very young to see early 90s. Yesterday’s event will keep our Azadi flame burning for decades to come.
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Koshur
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:15 pm

ather wrote:
...the most surprising fact is that a crpf truck got stranded when a huge gathering was coming from the other side and people in the procession started to get voilent at the stranded crpf truck and that is when some locals practically hid the military vehicle in nearby house for there safety for nearly 2 hours...we saved those military men who are eveready to kill the innocent unarmed kashmiri people..this is brotherhood and secularism in my view.....

ather brother, this is the best example of tolerance and generosity of Kashmiris that can think of. It is at these moments that we need cameras and have videos of it so we can share these priceless moments with the rest of the world. I am sure those crp men will think twice now before they think about harassing or killing another unarmed kashmiri.
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ravinder
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:55 pm

I want to raise a point here.

True - what we saw was the right and the best method to protest - peaceful and strong. No doubt that after so many years of Gun culture, the fight is back to basics and everyone realise this is THE way. However one noticeable thing which makes one to think is the objective change.

All these years, everybody right from Hurriyat till POK based organisations, were chanting the Azadi mantra. Though local Hindus were already alienated in the early years, there was still lot of support from other communities and groups visible. However last few days, the whole agenda seems to be changing from "Azadi" to "Pakistan" - from "Kashmiriyat" to "Islam". Does this mean that people are asking for an Islamic country with no Hindu/Sikhs/Budhists. Sorry, if this is the case, then again this wont go anywhere. I dont think it can be successful by alienating other communities and groups.
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peace
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PostSubject: @ravinder   Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:05 pm

dear ravinder brother....
first of all i would appreciate that u atleast that something is happening here otherwise most of the poeple across india do not...
let me write a few things here what i as a normal average kashmiri think and feel...
NO INDIA-NO PAKISTAN...its just complete independence of the united kashmir and not just the kashmir being adminstered by india..we want the whole J&K state which existed before 21st october 1947 when the indian army first came to kashmir and before that the army of maharaja of patiala...
kashmir has changed a lot since the muslim uprising in 1989 against the indian occupation..there was a major section of the population who were just crazy abt pakistan and wanted kashmir to merge with it..but i am telling u that percentage of the population has reduced to minimum now because we dnt feel that is the solution...situation in pakistan adminstered kashmir is not that great too but not even this worse what we see here..
...kashmiriyat is a word that is used too often but what does it mean..i am afraid its a debate in itself and i dnt want to diverse from the issue..but let me ask u..whats wrong if kashmir wants or becomes an islamic state..??
..by any stretch of imagination that does not mean that non-muslims will have no place here..saudi arabia is also an islamic state..are only muslims residing or working there..kashmiris have never been against buddhists,sikhs or hindus..there is place for everyone here because kashmir does not belong to kashmiri muslims only..u will be surprised to know that during the recent processions even sikhs came out and joined there muslim brothers..it is just that people talk too much about kashmir ofcourse because it is the central issue and because kashmiri pandits migrated from here..why dosent anyone ever talk about estimated 2.5 lacs of muslims who were killed in jammu in 1947 by RSS...???
.....kashmiriyat dosent mean that we tolerate humiliation,disgrace by the hands of india...i think what kashmiriyat means has been displayed very perfectly by the kashmiri people when not even a single amarnath yatri was touched by kashmiris and then in the midst of this great trouble yatris were provided free food by the locals here because every shop and every restaurant was shut..but does that mean in just a week 40 kashmiris should be killed by the army...and if anyone tells me that kashmiriyat asks me to be tolerant even after all this then i would say NO....islam asks us to defend ourselves and fight the enemy as does any other relegion and kashmiriyat is not above islam..
....we have been subjected to extreme conditions here by india and i must tell u that in this situation kashmiriyat has no meaning..its about our human rights,civil rights..its about coplete independence and that is what i want the poeple of india to realize because i dnt expect and should not anything from the government of india...kashmiris want total independence because india has miserably failed in more than six decades as a secular and demcratic country..u cnt show democracy and secularism in jammu and not in kashmir..that is partiality..i dnt even expect the indian media to highlight the real picture of kashmir because that is not there job at all...because if they do that then that would not be in the "best interest of the nation..."
....kashmiris are also human beings just like other indians and that has to be realized by the indian goverment..the more indian army tries to supress the voices of kashmiris more louder it will be against the injustice and inhuman approach by the indian government..i dnt see my complete independence round the corner but even mangal pandey failed to achieve that..but india didnt fail and finally achieved it as will kashmir one day...INSHALLAH...
regards...
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PostSubject: reply to ather's reply to ravinder   Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:42 am

hi Ather,

I can't blame you for the way you feel as i am pretty sure that you must have been born in late 80s or 90s. Please read the topic "What options does kashmir have?" You may get a lot of answers there and lot more insight.

cheers to have members like you.
At least you have the guts to accept that the initial call to be with pakistan (or what geelani is propounding ) was at least not the right decision.
If you get more educated, more aware of the reasons why you have been seeing armed forces since you were born, you will start seeing the light of truth and light of righteousness.
My arguments in the topic "What options does kashmir have?" might give you more insights.
Also it may make you think again about "Whats wrong in having a separate Islamic Kashmir?" on similar lines of islamic Pakistan, taliban afghanistan, islamic bangladesh etc.

regards
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PostSubject: let them be   Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:01 pm

Dear Kashmiri brothers,
I don't understand why Indians are hell bent in trying to persuade you all that independence is not good for you. Maybe it is better for the moderator of this forum to not allow publishing of all comments that show indian democracy in a good light. Maybe thats what you want to see. No problems in that. It seems that most indians don't understand kashmiriat, and the mettle that residents of kashmir is made of. They dont also understand why a proud kashmir nation still buys indian goods, conducts trade with indians, enjoy subsidies offered by the indian government to their tourism ventures in kashmir and elsewhere in the indian country, send their children to india for education, buy properties and businesses in india ..literally eat out of the indian taxpayers money and claim fundamental rights given to its citizens by the indian constitutiont, travel on indian passports, take part in Indian elections and form coalitions with indian national political parties etc etc... when at the same time refuse to show even a wee bit of gratitude. I use the word gratitude and not patriotism because thats the lowest level of return expected by a nation , and because patriotism is a phenomena that goes with peole who know how it is to be true to a nation. Not your fault, you were never made that way. I pity those indians who in their trips of pseudo secularism or national ego ranter on endlessly to make the whole thing more of a verbal war. Not required. People learn through their own experiences and mistakes, and indians should leave them to chart their own..uh.. mindsets! I dont think kashmir is going to go much beyond that.. independence is a romantic dream that will soon crash like it did in the nineties. Thats the writing on the wall. I am sad for them because the concept of 'freedom without duties' and sacrifise will never be allowed anywhere in this world. The world is too busy forging global business development and progress to be worried about a valley that wants independence. The human rights issue has become just a tool used by powerful nations to blackmail or arm twist lesser nations for capturing their natural resources and territories. You saw what USA did to Iraq and what happened in afgansitanA,lgeria, Brazil, Burundi, Colombia, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Liberia, Nigeria, many countries of the Middle East, Congo, Russia, Uganda, China Albania, Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Myanmar, Brazil, Cambodia, Colombia, Georgia, Kirghistan, Sudan, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Turkey, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam . My kashmiri borthers talk about india's oppresion so often. And they do it after covering their eyes off the fact that they support a terorist movement, which not only encompasses kashmir but also the whole of India. The more the terrorist attacks are perpetuated and supported these days, the more harder will it be to prove 'human rights abuses' against India. The separatist leaders and public may support and enjoy that insulin flow that a terrorist act on anything symbolic of India may guarantee, but at the same time is makes your cause much much weaker. The global scenario has changed post 9/11 my friends, and fighting terror is the new catch word all over the globe. Proof,.. it also made pakistan change course and work in tandem for 'war on terror' with the most hated country in pakistan.! No one will buy the terror for azadi scenario, and especially those countries that have a say in this world. Now a days, India just became one of them.....like it or not. And pakistan has too much to handle on their own side than back up the azadi claim.

Indians should not attempt to shatter the kashmiri dream of azadi. I will be discourteous, and insensitive. Let kashmiris live that dream, because it is their right. They have a right not to see what doesnt suit them. There are many thing they dont want to see, for example the the hindu exodus from kashmir valley is something they want all the world to forget, because thats a true example of human rights violation. They say the hindus went of their own. and they close their eyes to many assasinations, rapes, kidnappings and selective killings of their own muslim brethern, which does not figure in their bigger picture. I am leaving out the deaths caused to indian soldiers, just because maybe thats something that kashmiris dont consider that comes under the definition of human rights. A killed Indian will have no one orphaned or widowed, and therefore have no human rights. No need to get into arguments with them, because I'm sure their hearts only know the truth.

I wish them luck and peace.
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PostSubject: dear anon brother   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:00 pm

dear brother...
i appreciate ur well written article and ur thoughts..i agree with u that there should not be war of words here and i always say that we should have a healthy debate and dialogue so that we come to a conclusion rather than just waste our time...
Quote :
literally eat out of the indian taxpayers money and claim fundamental rights given to its citizens by the indian constitutiont, travel on indian passports, take part in Indian elections and form coalitions with indian national political parties etc etc...
i always request everyone to furnish facts supporting there statements otherwise these are just stories..now u and many others here talk about subsidies given to kashmir and how kashmir sucks the blood out of india...but nobody comes up with facts..let me give u one and its for ur own good if u read it with an open mind and would answer ur myth..."a survey last year was conducted by ABC consultants private ltd sson after the presentation of the union budget and the same survey was done in J&K state by strategic marketing unit and the facts were astonishing..an average kashmiri pays 3/4th of a rupee of whatever he earns to the government as direct or indirect tax..only 1/4th is spent here on activities and assets which serve the indigeneous economic system..not many people are aware that people in J$K pay indirect taxes everyday which are built in to the price of any product we buy from market which is being imported from india..what is also not well known that this tax does not go to the state but to the central government..in J&K every product has various taxes built into it and not just the sales tax paid to state government.and all such taxes go to the central government."
..i would have shown a lot of gratitude and even partriotism had i not witnessed what i have since last 22 years..and that is what is known as state terrorism..more than a lakh people having been killed..now u may argue they have been killed by terrorists but then whom do u call a terrorist when a common man raises his voice against brutalities..even for the sake of argument if i agree with u on killings then what about those people who have disappeared in army's custody which amounts to more than 40,000...what would u say about the recent mass graves found all around the valley...
sir let us face the facts and not fiction..kashmiris are not pakistanis and they are neither indians..they have an independent identity of there own..one thing that you should understand that only dreams come to reality..your dream started with mangal pandey and finally after 90 years paid off..i respect india's freedom struggle and indian freedom fighters who served the indian nation..and in the same way i respect my own freedom struggle and my own freedom fighters and it wont matter a bit what the world has to say...
regards
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PostSubject: Open your eyes   Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:44 am

It does not matter what Hari Singh thought or did at the time of partition of India. What is important is what people of Kashmir wanted at that time or want even now. What people want is evident from the massive rallies in which millions participated in kashmir....... They want freedom.
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PostSubject: perspectives   Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:08 am

dear Ather,
I think it will be prudent to compare central tax returns of J&K on two main parameters. One, tax returns from Kashmir valley, and tax returns from Jammu region, .. add them up and compare them with the figures f tax returns of other states in India.. and then compare the concessions, subsidies, tax holidays, economic packages, loan waivers, projects, and invstments of the govt of India made into j&K with what has been made into other states in the last 60 years and we shall have the picture. I will share then, with you the proof that you require. In the meanwhile, you may like to show me the proof of '40,000' dissapearences that you say have happened in kashmir. and please dont quote the figures from accross the border sources, or even still, dont add the numbers of kashmiri brethern who have crossed over to recieve terrorist training in many of the terrorist camps situated in pak. About mass graveyards, just point me a couple, with their locations... and pls dont include the graveyards of terrorists as will as people killed in armed conflict. When the term 'mass graveyards' is used, it normally connotes civiians lined up, shot and thrown into a pit and buries.... like the ones that were found in Bosnia and Kosovo, nad elsewhere during the ethnic cleansing of jews during Hitlers times. While you are busy replying to my question, I amy add that the nearest resemblance to a mass graveyard / killing of civilians seem to have come from your 'freedom fighters' who massacared baraats, minority villages in doda, poonch, rajouri, jammu (Rajeev Nagar masacre), mssacte of nepali labour in lasjan, srinagar, massacte of pandits in Nadigam, massacre of sikhs in chatti singh pora, in kashmir,.and now Chinore at jammu, and this is to name just few. And you know whats different in these killings? The main difference my friend is that these were massacres of plain innocent human beings who had nothing to do with anything. They were not perpetuating any violence, they were not raising any slogans, and they were not instigation sedition.
I apologise if I have managed to show you the mirror... not you personally, but people who dream should also know that one day the dream has to come to terms with whats real. Its easy and convenient to close your eyes to reality.. and listen to the distance drums of romantic freedon. I wish and you get it... and hope that the past doesnt come back to haunt..
regards
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PostSubject: Correction   Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:27 am

Quote :
I want to raise a point here.

True - what we saw was the right and the best method to protest - peaceful and strong. No doubt that after so many years of Gun culture, the fight is back to basics and everyone realise this is THE way. However one noticeable thing which makes one to think is the objective change.

All these years, everybody right from Hurriyat till POK based organisations, were chanting the Azadi mantra. Though local Hindus were already alienated in the early years, there was still lot of support from other communities and groups visible. However last few days, the whole agenda seems to be changing from "Azadi" to "Pakistan" - from "Kashmiriyat" to "Islam". Does this mean that people are asking for an Islamic country with no Hindu/Sikhs/Budhists. Sorry, if this is the case, then again this wont go anywhere. I dont think it can be successful by alienating other communities and groups.


Well, Mr. Ravinder let me first off clear your misconception regarding Islamic country. An Islamic country does not mean no hindus/sikhs/budhists. Had it been the case we would not find millions of christians still living in Arab countries, we would not find jews being welcomed by palestinians after they were ousted by Hitler from Germany which unfortunately resulted in grabbing of land by jews and formation of Israel and the brutalities being met by palestinians at the hands of Israelis ---- A shocking reply to their kindness. All these and many more examples are there to prove your theory wrong.
As far as Pakistan is considered it is not an Islamic country, it only appears to be so. There is no country in the whole world at present which has implemented the full Islamic law (Not even saudi Arabia). Saudi Arabia has implemented most of the islamic laws though. This is the reason why the crime rate in saudi Arabia is the lowest of all.
People were seen chanting slogans in favour of Pakistan here but these slogans were heard less frequently. Most of the times people were heard chanting Azadi Slogans. Believe it or not even those people who were chanting Pakistan slogans, most of them were not saying it from their heart. The reasons for these slogans to be raised might sound a little bit weird to you but it is true.
Reason 1. People generally shouted Pakistan slogans when Indian security personnel were around so as to hurt their feelings.
Reason 2. People have been used to Pakistan slogans over several years now and thus learning them by heart. They automatically come to their mouths.

I dont say that there are no Pakistan supporters but they are certainly very less in number. I guess the way to check that is to allow U.N. resolutions to be implemented and let people choose which way they want to go.
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PostSubject: reply to anon   Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:48 am

dear brother...
Quote :
I think it will be prudent to compare central tax returns of J&K on two main parameters. One, tax returns from Kashmir valley, and tax returns from Jammu region, .. add them up and compare them with the figures f tax returns of other states in India.. and then compare the concessions, subsidies, tax holidays, economic packages, loan waivers, projects, and invstments of the govt of India made into j&K with what has been made into other states in the last 60 years and we shall have the picture
kindly give me the figures and statistics of other states comparing them with J&K supporting ur claimas as i have given to u and then try to show me the right picture otheriwse dnt make stories brother...
the figure of 40,000 does not come from across the border brother but it unfortunately for you comes from the state human rights commission...u can get a copy of the report from there office for ur proof...
as for ur request about pointing out just couple of graveyards, i will be forwarding u an email tomorrow which will give u proof of surely more than a couple of unidentified graves and locations..if u wish to visit those graves u are most welcome and for ur knowledge maximum have been found in URI sector...
Quote :
I amy add that the nearest resemblance to a mass graveyard / killing of civilians seem to have come from your 'freedom fighters' who massacared baraats, minority villages in doda, poonch, rajouri, jammu (Rajeev Nagar masacre), mssacte of nepali labour in lasjan, srinagar, massacte of pandits in Nadigam, massacre of sikhs in chatti singh pora, in kashmir,.and now Chinore at jammu, and this is to name just few.
not you fault brother because that is what u have been shown on television all these years by india's very much patriotic media..this statement is not even worth a reply..one thing i might tell u is that massacre of sikhs in chatti singh pora was done by army men who were drunk..thats what the investigation report by the state human rights commision says..not me brother..but sadly it wont go down ur throat..
i dnt need to be shown a mirror by someone who is sitting far away from this war zone in his comfortable chair in his room..i know facts on ground as i have first hand knowledge and my knowledge does not depend upon biased national news channels..i pity those who blindfold themselves..
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PostSubject: dear anon   Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:55 am

brother kindly give me ur email id so that i may forward u the email regarding mass graves and would like u to read that with open mind and heart...i dnt talk in air but can support my claims..
regards
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PostSubject: Re: Muzaffarabad Challo   Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:18 pm

Quote :

brother kindly give me ur email id so that i may forward u the email regarding mass graves and would like u to read that with open mind and heart...i dnt talk in air but can support my claims..
regards

Perhaps this will bring some sanity to the question of mass graves:



To summaries:
1. Not more than thousand or so individual graves have been discovered.
2. Indian government claims these graves belong to terrorists whose bodies were not claimed, cross border infiltrators, and foreign terrorist.
3 Kashmir separatists claim these are bodies of innocent civilians killed for no reason.

Depending upon your biases, you can decide for yourself if these are terrorist graves or innocent civilian graves. In either case.
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