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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:14 pm

Quote :

I appreciate the comments by everyone and would highly recommend that everyone of you posting here register their accounts so that we dont allow posters like these ruin the debate here. Then I can set it up so that only registered users only can post here.

Its your forum, but from what I can see abuse is not a major problem yet. I know I have been quite active for the last few days and some of my posts are evoking strong reactions, but things should calm down, at least from my side in a couple of more days. I think I am going to run out of things to say soon. If I am still around after couple of days, I will register. New users may offcourse find it easier to post without registration and hence increase the popularity of your forums.

You are definitely doing a good job for all of us (Kashmiris and hated Indians) of maintaining this forum given the current situation in the valley.

Best Regards.
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PostSubject: hated-in   Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:35 pm

your biased approach and comments are not worth even a reply....
as for the source i dnt depend on internet as these are sometimes not accurate source of information...if u can get the below mentioned books and read them u might learn something..and for ur knowledge the books have been written by an american,kashmiri pandit and an indian hindu who are all non-muslims(for ur sake) with neutral and unbiased views..
1)kashmir a disputed legacy 1846-1990 by alastair lamb
2)struggle for kashmir freedom by prem nath bazaz(kashmiri pandit)
3)hindu rulers muslim subjects by mridu rai who teaches history at yale university...
regards
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:03 pm

@hated in
Quote :
I am already calm. Couldn't be more calm and you still haven't told me how Muslims in India are being discriminated against.


You don’t believe there is any discrimination ? Please read the following and enlighten yourself.

..."a survey last year was conducted by ABC consultants private ltd sson after the presentation of the union budget and the same survey was done in J&K state by strategic marketing unit and the facts were astonishing..an average kashmiri pays 3/4th of a rupee of whatever he earns to the government as direct or indirect tax..only 1/4th is spent here on activities and assets which serve the indigeneous economic system..not many people are aware that people in J$K pay indirect taxes everyday which are built in to the price of any product we buy from market which is being imported from india..what is also not well known that this tax does not go to the state but to the central government..in J&K every product has various taxes built into it and not just the sales tax paid to state government.and all such taxes go to the central government."(write up by Mr. Ather)



In 5 yrs, it will be Jammu Administrative Service
(by Mr. ALEE ANDRABI )

Srinagar, Aug 19. According to a computation made by the General Administration Department (GAD) in 2005, for submission to the Sachar Committee, the state had roughly 3,52,000 employees. The Department worked out the percentage of employees to the total strength of respective communities. Hindu employees represent 4.61 percent of the 30 lakh Hindu population in the state whereas Muslims have a representation of 2.85 percent for the 68 lakh Muslim population. So relative to the respective populations, Hindus outnumber Muslims in the State government. This should question the ‘assertions’ of discrimination effusing from the winter capital. Ridicule them. Deflate them.
Scanning the composition of the State administration, the claims of discrimination do come home, indeed. The irony, though, is that the victim of this discrimination is not the ‘Pro National’ Jammu wala as we have been made to believe but the ‘Anti National’ Kashmiri, to put in the latest Right wing lingo. One, which is being endorsed by our wannabe Prime Minister L K Advani as well.
Starting with the Indian Administrative Service (IAS), the total cadre strength is 94 with 24 officers belonging to the Kashmir division, 27 officers belonging to the Jammu division and two from Ladakh. The other 41 babus are from outside the state. So where exactly is Jammu getting discriminated in all this? Delusion, but nothing! Further, most of the core developmental departments like Planning, Finance, R&B, PHE and Irrigation are headed by non-Kashmiris. Even the all important departments of Agriculture, Revenue, Social Welfare, Health, Home, CAPD, Industries and Commerce, Information, PDD are ‘endowed’ to non-Kashmiris. The trend is the same for Science and Technology, Transport and Culture. No Kashmiri components!
Another ‘discriminating’ fact, for the record. Since 1947, out of 26 Chief Secretaries of the State, only 6 have been Kashmiri Muslims. How’s that for discrimination for the only Muslim majority state of ‘secular’ India. But no one has ever stood up for this. Makes sense, in a way. Why would a Kashmiri Muslim civil servant take the ‘risk’ of speaking against discrimination engineered by a minority and be branded as ‘anti national’. Not worth it! Never was.
Now comes the real shocker. The Kashmir Administrative Service (KAS). This is where scores have to be settled, intriguing serious questions have to be asked, discrimination has to be debated and alienation of Kashmiri Muslims has to be addressed. Out of the 338 KAS cadre officers in the state, 155 officers belong to Kashmir division, 151 to Jammu division and 22 to Ladakh division. 10 officers are from junior KAS. Now how can this representation be fair, even ethical? This is unfair by any account of economic management or population distribution. The ratio is 55:45 in favor of Muslims but why has everything been worked out and settled at 50:50? It is not supposed to be that way. Kashmir outnumbers others in terms of population, but why is that they are outnumbered when it comes to Administration, Judiciary, Police and even Private enterprise? This preposterous idea of 50:50 distribution is absolutely fake, senseless by all parameters. Save your disappointment, resentment and protests for now though. Save them for the ‘administrative genocide’ I am about to illustrate.
From 2001 till date, 478 KAS appointments have been made. Kashmiris are at 106, Ladakh at 12 and Jammu at a staggering overpowering figure of 360. Discrimination? No, not by any standards. This is something far beyond the term, with devastating consequences for the majority. As I said ‘administrative genocide’, if you like. Engineering, competent and successful, has been done for the next three decades and things (read Kashmiris) have been leveled out for the ‘pro National’ Jammu bureaucrats. In fact it would not even make sense to call it KAS five years down the line. It will be, rather already can be, rechristened as Jammu Administrative Service (JAS). And here in Kashmir, we would even have to import BDOs and Tehsildars!
And mind you, Kashmiris are not overpowered in bureaucracy alone. It’s all across. Take for example the 641 Muslims and the 1015 Hindus figuring in the tentative seniority list of 1656 Junior Agriculture Assistants as of April 2006. Or for that matter the 114 Muslim AEEs in Works Department against the 164 Hindu AEEs as of May 2005. And be assured, it only gets worse after that.
The latest recruitments don’t show any mercy to Muslims or Kashmiris. Amongst the 429 Accounts Assistants selected by the Service Selection Board in April 2008, Jammu accounts for 334 Assistants while Kashmir gets a ‘fabulous’ 95. I am not even going to comment on that.
Of course, Raj Bhawan, the custodian of the constitutional rights of all sections of society remains off limits for at least one community, no prizes. The last Muslim Secretary the First Citizen of the state had was when we used to have a Sadr i Riyasat. Since then it is graciously adorned by the malis of Floriculture Department who are considered indispensable for their manicuring skills and presenting a gulab every morning to the sahib of the estate. However with the arrival of the present Governor two middle level Muslim officers from the former Chief Minister’s office are now manning the secretariat outpost of Raj Bhavan.
To conclude, all this is in complete sync with the latest branding of Kashmiris. Anti Nationals, at the end of the day you see.
PS: Yesterday’s piece on judiciary reflected only the current composition affected by deputation and transfers. The actual composition of the J&K High Court Bench gives Kashmir 6 slots and Jammu 6. Of these two from Jammu, Justice V K Gupta and Justice T S Thakur are already Chief Justices posted on deputation. Justice Bilal Nazki from Kashmir is a judge on deputation to the Bombay High Court.
The State Hugh Court has so far sent 3 judges to the Supreme Court, one of whom, Justice Anand, served as Chief Justice of India. The other two were justice Raja Jaswant Singh and Justice R P Sethi. You know their home addresses.



Kisse Vakil Karen Kis se Munsifi Chahen

(by Mr. ALEE ANDRABI)


Srinagar, Aug 18: The ‘discrimination’ debate has come to the fore, yet again. Taking the centre-stage in Jammu along with the Amarnath agitation, its misrepresented and clichéd tagline of ‘second class citizens’ has not only been restricted to the slogans of resurrected right wing netas and newsprint in Jammu but has found its way into the newsrooms of National media, gaining undue mileage across Bharat.
We are making an attempt to remove some mist around this discrimination debate. However, Greater Kashmir does not want to contribute to the agenda of hate, discord and divisive politics being run across Chenab. We just want to put the record straight and remove the myths of regional disparity. This is the first of a series of articles on the subject.
We start with the Judiciary. First things first, though. The Sachar Committee report on the Social, Economic and Educational Status of the Muslim Community of India, commissioned by the Prime Minister, reveals important figures and information which would somewhat help in dispelling the distorted facts around discrimination in Jammu and Kashmir. We take the representation of Muslims in West Bengal Judiciary as an analogy to the judicial composition in our state. This makes sense because the composition of population in West Bengal is roughly opposite to that of Jammu & Kashmir. West Bengal has a population of 72.5 percent Hindus and 25.2 percent Muslims, whereas Jammu & Kashmir has 67 percent Muslim population and about 29.6 percent Hindus. In West Bengal judiciary the share of Muslims is 4.8 percent at the level of Sessions Judge and 3.2 per cent at the levels of Munsif. A comparison of these numbers with the Muslim representation in our judiciary will prick the bubble of the discrimination bogey.
Muslims and Kashmiris are hugely outnumbered in the superior and lower judiciary of Jammu and Kashmir, the only ‘Muslim majority’ state in India. Contrary to the bogus claims emanating from different quarters, the figures are surprising. Grave, on second thoughts. We have 10 High Court Judges. Only 3 happen to be Kashmiri Muslims. One a Kashmiri Pandit. Amongst the rest, 3 are Jammu Hindus and 3 outsiders, Hindu again. Well then, discrimination? Of course. But the other way around. Muslims with more than double the population of Hindus have been ‘made to’ stand on equal ground in the superior judiciary. Blatant discrimination. Exploitation. I hope these figures address the concerns of the self proclaimed ‘second class citizens’ up in arms against Kashmiri Muslims and gives them an ego boost. A much needed one.
Moving on to the Sessions Judges. 8 Kashmiri Pandits, 4 Jammu Muslims, 28 Jammu Non Muslims and 24 Kashmiri Muslims. The representation of Jammuites works out to 50 per cent. Compare that with the representation of West Bengal Muslims quoted above. With these figures, I can only be shocked as to how this blatant myth of discrimination of the Jammu population has been kept alive for so long and even gets coverage and endorsement across the ‘Breaking News’ bandwagon of modern day India. A commendable feat indeed. And to add to these disturbing figures, sixteen of the twenty four Muslim Judges of Kashmir are retiring in two years. It is all yours to play Jammuites!
Thanks to the recruitment during the past twenty years the lion’s share will literally belong to the ‘second class citizens’. Have a look at these staggering figures. In all there are 110 Sub Judges/ Munsifs out of which 79 are from Jammu, with 19 Muslims and 60 Non Muslims. This works out to 72 percent, compared to the 3.2 percent Muslim Munsifs in West Bengal! The participation of Kashmiris in the most vital judiciary is of course a pittance. Only 29 Kashmiri Muslim Sub Judges and 2 Kashmiri Pandits. This is not even discrimination, it looks like ethnic cleansing.
There is no doubt in my mind that Kashmiris got only what they deserved on the basis of comparative merit. But they don’t complain. Look who does!


Besides kasmiris are being deprieved of hydroelecric power stations which were promised by the centre to hand over to the state govt at the time of their construction.These power stations supply elecrtricity to the whole of north india.Kashmir is put to huge loss at the cost of rest of India.
The Indus water treaty with pakistan has put a limit on the use of our water resources.On the return India enjoys the water resources of Pakistan via punjab.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:07 pm

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Is god going to come down and implement your so called "perfect" Shariat laws? If not, I suggest you stop harping about them. The only places that I have seen your "perfect" Shariat laws being implemented is Pakistan and Afghanistan and from what I can see both these places have gone to hell. But do feel free to move to Pakistan if you are not already there.


Islam is the second largest religion in the world and Shariah is implemented in major Islamic countries. Your vision is confined to Pakistan and Afghanistan only. Some countries may have not implemented the law rightly.This does not mean that the law itself is bad. You want me to leave my homeland and hand it over to you? What a joke! If I ask you to leave India.? Will you agree? Don’t be child .Be mature! We will defend our land till the last drop of blood. Remember this!


Quote :
You see the problem is that UN is not going to be helping you to establish a fundamentalist state. UN already has its hands full with fundamentalists for now. And UN itself does not give much weight to its resolutions on Kashmir anymore. Unfortunately for you the world has moved on while you still continue to live in past.

UN resolution that you are talking about was not a binding resolution in the first place like say UN resolutions on Iraq. UN resolutions on Kashmir was simply a suggestion that India MAY consider carrying out a vote to determine the will of people AFTER, I repeat AFTER, Pakistan vacates Pakistani occupied Kashmir. So, your best friend Pakistan, will first have to give up its part of Kashmir to India before India may or may not decide to hold a plebiscite their. Has your best friend Pakistan vacated Kashmir yet?

Also, as far as I know, UN is a secular organization and doesn't operate under Shariat law. So given your love for perfect Islamic law I am surprised that you even recognize UN.


UN may not help us but Allah will help us surely. You all know about the resolutions which were principally agreed by India and is now denying the same. This proves how truthful India is who loves to break promises.The passing of time will not wipe the truth. The truth is that the accession was temporary in limited fields and was to be followed by referendum of people.
I too wish that Pakistan vacates Pakistani occupied Kashmir and merge with this part of kashmir. But I think both Pakistan and India are creating hurdles in this.

You should know that UN relates to disputes between countries whereas Shariah is the law imposed on the subjects of a country. The two tings are different .Don’t try to mix them.



Quote :
You don't need to do this in future as there are enough historical sources on the internet. Simply pointing to the source would suffice


Code:

For example http://jammukashmir.nic.in/profile/jkhist.htm (from the official website of J&K government)



The views on the internet are mostly biased. I think you should go through the books suggested by Mr. Athar if you don’t believe me.


Quote :
Same thing happened with Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, Christians in Pakistan and Bangladesh who moved to India. So I am not sure whats the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that Muslims are not capable of carrying out heinous acts of violence?


You are trying to deviate from the topic. Surely some Muslims may have carried acts of violence in retaliation. But this was in reply to your comment that kashmiris should leave Kashmir. Such acts are done only by force which the Indians will not be able to do with kashmiris.


Quote :
J&K isn't going anywhere. The only partition that is going to happen is the partition of Kashmir that is illegally occupied by Pakistan and its integration into India. However, do feel free to move into Pakistan if you are not already there. Make sure you don't move into POK, otherwise you will find yourself back in India again sooner or later.


This shows your adamant nature and lack of understanding. You people should accept the facts and fear GOD. After all every one has to die. How will you face the GOD?
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:20 pm

I request Admin that registration should be made compulsory to post in the forum. I can see some of the people are trying to spoil the discussion by using provocative and obscene language without any liability of being identified.This will otherwise end up fighting with each other without understanding each others point of view.

With Regards


Last edited by Mukhtar on Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: @ hated-in   Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:23 pm

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I am already calm. Couldn't be more calm and you still haven't told me how Muslims in India are being discriminated against.
dear brother i hope u are aware of SACHHAR committe report set up by supreme court of india which described the conditions of muslims in india worse than dalits...there economic system is far below than hindus or christians and described many more aspects...it was an issue discussed in parliament brother..
....i dnt know y u dnt think before u write something...
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PostSubject: relegious freedom in kashmir   Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:22 pm

Srinagar, Aug 31: Accusing paramilitary CRPF troopers of beating up the people without any provocation, residents of Habba Kadal and other adjoining areas staged a massive protest near main Habba Kadal chowk this afternoon, witnesses said.
“We were moving towards Masjids to offer congregation prayers during relaxation period. CRPF troopers deployed here without any provocation beat up many youth and stopped them from entering the Masjids,” locals said.
As the word about youth being beaten spread in the area, hundreds of people took to the roads and staged a massive protest demanding action against erring troopers. “They are not allowing us to offer congregation prayers even during relaxation period. This is straight interference in our religious matters,” protesters said.
Higher top police officials reached the spot and tried to pacify the protesters. Negotiations between the police officials and locals were on when this report was filed.
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PostSubject: Suchi   Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:45 pm

come on suchi dont get too mushy! who do you think you are pleading to here, Ali Shah Geelani?
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:01 am

Quote :

dear brother i hope u are aware of SACHHAR committe report set up by supreme court of india which described the conditions of muslims in india worse than dalits...there economic system is far below than hindus or christians and described many more aspects...it was an issue discussed in parliament brother..
....i dnt know y u dnt think before u write something...

Not discrimination. Its the inability of many Muslims to come to terms with modern 21st century society where science and math education is more important than religious indoctrination in Koran and Urdu. Your clerics are more interested in debating Sania Mirza's skirt length and issuing fatwas rather than reforming the education system of almost 8000 madrassa's where hundreds of thousands of Muslims study. The net effect is that Muslims who come out of Madrassa's have absolutely no modern skills to get a job. Try learning from the Christian missionary schools who impart some of the best education in India.

Muslims in India are a diverse lot and those sub groups of Muslims who have embraced modern education such as Ismailis have done quite well. But out of the rest many continue to live in 17th century even though the state of Muslim society in India is much better than that of Muslims in say Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan. That is exactly the reason why you find many Bangladeshis migrating illegally into India.

Sachar commitee report was definitely a master stroke on UPA's hand. It helped the UPA to garner muslim votes while at the same time it politely put the focus on development of Muslim society without fooling anyone that large sections of Muslim society need to reform to succeed in a modern developing society. If it would have been put more directly and bluntly your Mullahs would have declared jihad.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:41 am

Quote :

This does not mean that the law itself is bad.

Hmm, as far as I can see the only place Shariat law seems to work is in your mind. Pakistan and Afghanistan being classic examples of places that have gone to hell after Shariat law was implemented.

Quote :

You want me to leave my homeland and hand it over to you? What a joke! If I ask you to leave India.?

I am not the one advocating sedition and I would rather prefer that you free yourself of Pakistani brainwashing, but if that is not possible do feel free to leave. In your case since you wish to establish an Islamic fundamentalist state, I would suggest you move to Pakistan. You would be more comfortable there. And as a "fellow muslim" you probably won't face discrimination from evil Hindus like you do in India.

Quote :

UN may not help us but Allah will help us surely.

Nope no help from Allah either, there are more Muslims in India than anywhere else in the world except maybe in Indonesia and guess what Indonesia is also secular. So Allah is on India's side and that is exactly the reason why Pakistan has gone to hell and you in J&K haven't gone anywhere for last 60 years.


Quote :

This proves how truthful India is who loves to break promises.The passing of time will not wipe the truth. The truth is that the accession was temporary in limited fields and was to be followed by referendum of people.

No promise has been broken. Read the Instrument of Accession again.

Quote :

I too wish that Pakistan vacates Pakistani occupied Kashmir and merge with this part of kashmir. But I think both Pakistan and India are creating hurdles in this.

No its Pakistan who is creating hurdles by not vacating its illegally occupied territory of J&K back to India. Not only that, your fellow Muslim country under Shariat law, seceded a part of J&K to China thereby bringing a third party into the Kashmir problem and making the issue more complex to resolve.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:52 am

Quote :

1)kashmir a disputed legacy 1846-1990 by alastair lamb
2)struggle for kashmir freedom by prem nath bazaz(kashmiri pandit)
3)hindu rulers muslim subjects by mridu rai who teaches history at yale university...
regards

Not everyone is as rich as you are. I have an internet connection doesn't mean that I can afford to buy such expensive books and that too three of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:00 pm

Quote :
Hmm, as far as I can see the only place Shariat law seems to work is in your mind. Pakistan and Afghanistan being classic examples of places that have gone to hell after Shariat law was implemented.

No , Pakistan and Afganistn are not classic examples.There are hundreds of Islamic countries in the world.I told you earlier also that your vision is limited to Pakistan and Afganistan only.




Quote :
I am not the one advocating sedition and I would rather prefer that you free yourself of Pakistani brainwashing, but if that is not possible do feel free to leave. In your case since you wish to establish an Islamic fundamentalist state, I would suggest you move to Pakistan. You would be more comfortable there. And as a "fellow muslim" you probably won't face discrimination from evil Hindus like you do in India.

It is Indian media which is brainwashing innocent kashmiris.We dont need your suggestion.We know what is right and what is wrong.When we free ourselves from the clutches of India ,only then we will be saved from discrimination.



Quote :
Nope no help from Allah either, there are more Muslims in India than anywhere else in the world except maybe in Indonesia and guess what Indonesia is also secular. So Allah is on India's side and that is exactly the reason why Pakistan has gone to hell and you in J&K haven't gone anywhere for last 60 years.

You are talking as if Allah acts on your advice.Allah is all knowing.No matter you may get material gains,but you will never get peace and happiness.




Quote :
No promise has been broken. Read the Instrument of Accession again.
Quote :
No its Pakistan who is creating hurdles by not vacating its illegally occupied territory of J&K back to India. Not only that, your fellow Muslim country under Shariat law, seceded a part of J&K to China thereby bringing a third party into the Kashmir problem and making the issue more complex to resolve.

After narrating you all the Ramayan, you are telling me who the Ram is? You are impossible man! Kindly read my previos posts again ;investigate on it and then only comment.
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PostSubject: dear hated-in   Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:34 pm

hated-in i think u are here to argue rather than a dialogue and it seems its all a waste of time..i leave u with ur ideologies and opinions...
...btw how do u know the books are expensive...???and if u cnt afford it write to me ur postal address and will surely post u a copy..consider it as a gift from a kashmiri friend...
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PostSubject: @mukhtar   Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:36 pm

mukhtar bhai u are just wasting ur time here....
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PostSubject: email i received   Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:01 am

for all brothers...
Quote :
Should the silence prevail again?



``Azaadi for Kashmir Azaadi for Indians" by Arundhati Roy (OUTLOOK Sep1,2008) and"Why not azaadi for Kahmiris?" by Arindham Chaudhari (THE SUNDAY INDIA 25th Aug) are thought- provoking cover stories for both Indians & Kashmiris. Both the writers have intelligently expressed the reality with balanced use of words & commendable courage. More justice to the issue could not have been expected from

them and what we feel missing in between the lines is only because they are not Kashmiris.

Even though Aridham had heard since his childhood from his father that" If Kashmiris don’t want to be a part of India ,then why can't we think of giving Kashmir independence?" I and scores of Kashmiris like me had never heard such thing till 90`s when for the first time the slogan "Hum kya chahtey – Azaadi" rang in our ears & is ringing ever since.

Before this time politics for us meant clashes, stone pelting and abuses among groups of Sher-e-Bakr , especially on '13th July Martyrs Day 'near Jamia Masjid when processions from Mujahid Manzil would be carried out with great fervor & enthusiasm. Processions would proceed to Shaheed Mazaar .The injured would be attended in dispensaries & hospitals,rarely anyone would get killed and next day would be a usual day. And Pakistan for us would mean a glamorous cricket team & celebrations (with no agenda) on defeat of India in these cricket matches.

We would celebrate Independence Day on 15th August ,sweat on this hot summer day for long parades, watch Raavan burn in Iqbal Park on Dusshera,burn crackers till midnight on Diwali,wait for walnuts on Shivratri,sing Christmas carols in schools and say good-bye to long depressing white winters with Baisakhi.How secure ,integrated & peaceful was the environment in which we grew to live for the day when 15th August for us became black day and 14th August became a day for celebration. Our fellow pandits left us alone to face the wrath of Indian democracy or hypocrisy .Any recreation and entertainment became a crime and we got caught in a homogeneous society with an insecure present & uncertain future

Now the question arises "Why the decades of apparent silence when the statement "Kashmir –an integral part of India" was and is a suffocation for Kashmiris.Plausible answer seems that for sure there was this quiet ,coward generation who apparently expressed content in whatever they received from India & without resistance witnessed & became victims of Indian manipulation and betrayed administration in the hands of their so-called elected, selfish & corrupt leaders .It is the negligence & lack of responsibility of this generation that if Indian & Kashmiri youth today do not know for sure " Why Kashmiris want azaadi?" Not everyone who is on the roads shouting the slogans know why and what these slogans mean.

The lesson from our past ----"If the cause is genuine and the belief in it is firm, if the choices are limited and compromise is a pain, then the silence of one generation means amplified agitation for the next".

At this point of time when Kashmiri Azaadi & sustaining Azaadi have raised unprecedented questions and debates in India and internationally, Kashmiris cannot afford mistakes.

It is not the leaders, politicians, army or beauracrats, but the people who have to win and for achieving the win situation:

"Goal has to be clear , agenda has to be common ,tolerance has to be built ,anger has to subside , awareness has to grow , economy has to be strengthened ,religions have to be followed in spirit & actions not in slogans ,flags have to be revered ,sacrifices have to be remembered,freedom has to be honoured and the effort has to go on.

" Lest our next generation becomes unforgiving of our silence".
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:56 am

I found one of the books on google books

Code:

see http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=x5azvT2hjW0C

Click on the picture of the book to see all the pages.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:10 am

dear hated-in,
its good to know that u took out time to check the book on internet..i would have suggested to go for a second hand book but i doubt such a book will be available in second hand market...i think alastair lamb's book would cost u around 500 rs but its difficult to find it in india i suppose...hindu rulers and muslim subjects costs 695 rs and is available...there are scores of other books available but its always good to read a book with unbiased views written..
with best wishes
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PostSubject: Troops continue night raids in Shahr-e-Khaas, hunt for protesters   Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:59 pm

Quote :

Srinagar, Sep 6: Nocturnal raids by police and CPRF in Nowhatta area of Shahr-e-Khaas in the summer capital are giving sleepless nights to the residents who complain of being thrashed and intimidated by the troops. The residents said troops are hunting for some teenagers of the area accusing them of having participated in protests past weeks.
“Bring them to the police station or we won’t let you live!” The residents say this is what troopers say while leaving the area after running a “running a reign of terror” in the dead of the dark.
On Friday, at around 10:30 PM, troops second time in the week, raided Rang Hamam and adjoining Baha-ud-Din Sahib area.
During the joint operations of police and CRPF, the residents said the troops barged into the houses, conducted house-to-house searches and thrashed the inmates.
No one is ready to reveal his or her identity pleading that police has threatened them of reporting it to media. So the complainants spoke on the condition of anonymity.
“We had arrived from Masjid after Tarawi and were about to sleep when someone banged the door. And when I opened, a dozen odd troops popped in with a punch on my face,” complained a resident of Rang Hamam.
He said without asking anything the armed troops some of whom were in civvies donning Khan Suits and Phirans went around the house. The family alleged some of the troops were drunk.
“Finally, after an hour of roaming around they herded all the family members to a room and beat us seeking whereabouts of my son,” said a resident.
“Police said he (son) was involved in the protests and must be produced in the police station. Even though I pleaded that he is a teenager, they didn’t pay any heed and threatened me of dire consequences.”
The family head added: “They (troops) said we will raze the entire area to ground if the youth aren’t handed over to us.”
The locals say, fearing arrests many youth have migrated from the area to safer places.
Life at Nowhatta, the residents say has become a hell following raids and the threats.
“They create a fear before barging into residential houses by switching off the street lights and not letting anyone to some out on the streets,” said a resident of Baha Ud Din sahib.
“Moreover, some of them are drunk so anything worst is expected from them,” the complainants alleged.
When contacted police station Nowhatta refuted the complaints.
“We have no such information,” said the Thana Munshi.
Meanwhile, residents appealed Co-ordination committee to look into the matter.
“Why are they silent? They must help us out,” a delegation of the residents said.
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: CHINA ?   Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:49 am

[Deleted by moderator: multiple posts on different threads. Wikipedia links not allowed]
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ABC_to_XYZ
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PostSubject: CHINA - PAKISTAN - INDIA ->>>>>>>>   Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:22 am

Lets try to understand and take a rational stand. Its after all OUR problem.

Ok, I am posting again the points for consideration, after removing Wiki links.
Other folks in the forum, Just for your information, if you want more details of the following point, you can search on google, for more unbiased information you can also try Wikipedia.com (Just type in certain key words from the below points)

We have three party who have Occupied legally or illegally some part of kashmir from Three directions.
Whom we can trust and who can provide us the most safety and equal standard.

1. China is another party which can take over other part of J&K as it has taken Akasi chin by force.
For Aksai Chin India has developed bitter relation with China for last 46 years and Lost only war in 1962.

2. Pakistan has gifted 1/3 of his possesion as "Karakoram Tract" to China in a friendship gesture.

3. May be in future with internal bickering to continue I believe China can take over Kashmir like it has Done for Tibet and
Xinjiang

4. May be Pakistan will create another Taliban like Afghan Taliban or Pakistan Taliban as it has done for AJK and Northern Area.

5. May be Peace loving Kashmiris will need to develop nuclear weapons to protect itself from Nuclear India, Nuclear Pakistan and Nuclear China

6. And Interestingly Ladhak doesn't have agitation at all unlike Kashmirs and Jammus, I see to them as peace loving for reason which is beyond the comprehension of the whole world.

7. May be there will be need of another government in exile for Kashmiris like tibetians or all peace loving people will be crushed as under Talibans.

8. And brutal hindus and Indians have already learnt a lesson from peace loving Kashmiris. All Kashmiri pundits are driven out of the Kashmir Valley.

9. Lets analyze Northern Area and AJK now, (POK)
A. There is no Kashmiri representative in Pakistan National Assembly.
B. PoK is governed through the ministry of Kashmir affairs in Islamabad.
C. The Kashmir Council is dominated by Pakistani officials and the chief secretary, inspector-general of police, accountant-general and finance secretary in the PoK are all from Pakistan.
D. There is no democratic representation of Gilgit and Baltistan.



Taliban and Tibetian has so many letters common only on paper.
And Kashmiri Pundit have Kashmir only in their name.
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Yogesh K
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PostSubject: Kashmir   Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:40 am

In the beginning there was India a possession of a British company, where erstwhile foes Muslims and Hindus lived. In 1857 there was a very bloody uprising against the British, this time Muslims and Hindus fought side by side against the firangee.

It was feudal India's last stand, but for numerous reasons it failed. The British though got a real fright, Victoria issued a proclamation, there were more corpses hanging than Bombay Ducks in the summer. Inexplicably things settled down soon.

Most Indians were comfortable with the British rule so it seems, there is no other reason why a handful of Britishers could rule for so long. After a while this tranquil was disturbed by a few who fancied independence. So there were agitations, most peaceful others not quite so. There were two world wars, the first saw the rise of a new super power and the second after terrible things like the holocaust, gave rise to the second pole. Great Britain perhaps no longer felt so great, and the Naval Mutiny at Mumbai probably brought back memories of 'Cawnpore' and the 'Black Hole'.

All along some Muslims got into their heads that they need space where they could indulge in Islam and every thing that went with it, as much as they needed independence from the British, so came the idea of The Indian Muslim as a nation. The Hindus found themselves at the mercy of representatives who had sold their souls to the devil and were desperate for power united or partitioned. So we had Pakistan and a twist with destiny.

Now comes the crux the Muslims had their homeland Pakistan, the deal was that there was to be a transfer of population, Hindus to India and Muslims to Pakistan, the transfer took place but one way, Pakistan was cleared of Hindus a thorough ethnic cleansing using methods which have Divine sanction.Muslims had their Pakistan and ate it too.

Forget the 7 million Muslims of J & K, what about the 150 million in the rest of India.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:01 am

Yogesh K wrote:

In the beginning there was India a possession of a British company, where erstwhile foes Muslims and Hindus lived.

In the beginning there was Mehrgarh culture (9000 years ago), which marked the first evidence of organized farming in South Asia and as a matter of fact most of the world.

Quote :

In 1857 there was a very bloody uprising against the British, this time Muslims and Hindus fought side by side against the firangee. It was feudal India's last stand,

Incorrect and irrelevant and It was a mass uprising.

Quote :

The British though got a real fright, Victoria issued a proclamation, there were more corpses hanging than Bombay Ducks in the summer.

Irrelevant again and to be more clear at least 1 million by most conservative estimates and around 10 million by liberal estimates spread over 10 years after 1857 when British actively suppressed all information about the revolt and indulged in slaughter and loot. Old Delhi, which was the center of Mughal Empire (or whatever was left of it at that time) was completely depopulated, along with many towns and villages all across Northern India.

Quote :

Most Indians were comfortable with the British rule so it seems, there is no other reason why a handful of Britishers could rule for so long.

By that reasoning one could say that most people in North Korea are comfortable with communist and exploitative rule in North Korea and I guess people in Afghanistan were comfortable with Taliban rule as well. North Korean regime has lasted for quite a while and so did Taliban.

Quote :

After a while this tranquil was disturbed by a few who fancied independence. So there were agitations, most peaceful others not quite so. There were two world wars, the first saw the rise of a new super power and the second after terrible things like the holocaust, gave rise to the second pole.

Oh so sad. I am almost in tears. Now take all the irrelevant stuff somewhere else. Nobody cares about world wars or holocaust in India.

Quote :

Great Britain perhaps no longer felt so great,

At present, GB can best be classified as 51st of United States. In future it will most likely disappear into the EU. Its a third-world country pretending to be a developed country. In any case this is completely irrelevant and off-topic. I request the Admin to delete such irreverent discussions.

Quote :

and the Naval Mutiny at Mumbai probably brought back memories of 'Cawnpore' and the 'Black Hole'.

Irrelevant, take it somewhere else.

Quote :

All along some Muslims got into their heads that they need space where they could indulge in Islam and every thing that went with it, as much as they needed independence from the British, so came the idea of The Indian Muslim as a nation. The Hindus found themselves at the mercy of representatives who had sold their souls to the devil and were desperate for power united or partitioned. So we had Pakistan and a twist with destiny.

Now comes the crux the Muslims had their homeland Pakistan, the deal was that there was to be a transfer of population, Hindus to India and Muslims to Pakistan, the transfer took place but one way, Pakistan was cleared of Hindus a thorough ethnic cleansing using methods which have Divine sanction.Muslims had their Pakistan and ate it too.

Irrelevant. Take it somewhere else or put it on your personal blog.

Quote :

Forget the 7 million Muslims of J & K, what about the 150 million in the rest of India.

I don't know about them, but please feel free to migrate to Pakistan yourself.
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Yogesh K
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PostSubject: Kashmir   Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:18 am

If you go sufficiently back in time, perhaps in the beginning there was a Big Bang Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:46 am

@hated-in
Quote :
Irrelevant, take it somewhere else

Exactly who gave you the authority to turn away other posters from this forum or to decide what can be posted on here??

Remeber you are at two strikes. One strike away from being banned yourself.
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dude
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:34 am

Its amazing, simply beyond belief, no ONE EVER mentions the China's occupation in Tibet or Balochs in Pakistan. Quite a shame really how you pick and choose certain invasions and leave others out.
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