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Suchi
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PostSubject: Kashmir vs India   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:35 am

To begin with, none of us knows the future, so future is not being discussed here, and what I am trying to put in here is from an independent point of view, these are purely my thoughts and you may disagree to it.... Especially at the heights of the Azaadi movement, this post may appear to be too simplistic......

circa 1989-90 , Pakistan had had a crushing defeat in its Khalistan movement, and the J&K elections in 1988 got rigged nicely by Congress in Delhi/NC in the valley. All people disgruntled with it including the entire current top brass of the Hurriyat, erupted, and Pakistan and the ISI got the oppurtune moment, spurring youth from the valley, to raise arms and get the pundits sidelined. The popular belief in the valley then was that the pundits are the "indian agents" in the valley, simply because they were better off than the average muslim kashmiri...end result- Kashmiri youth went across the border, got trained in arms and battle fatigue and believed the azaadi is across the corner by force. Pundits had to leave the valley, and army had to be called in, the army strength went up from close to 70 thousand soilders in kashmir to close to 2.5 lakhs

Now, think from a INdian soilder's perspective .....poor guy from BIhar.Tamilnadu, AP gets posted here, knows zilch of the kashmiri language, and zilch at times of hindi too(esp south indian soilders), the kashmiri youth(the miltancy then was still homegrown) are indistinguishable from any other kashmiri walking on the roads.....but they shoot and fire on the soilders, how do they know, who s a friend and who s an enemy, its a war zone, and the first thing to go for a toss in was zones is civil liberty, check posts and I cards come up, and the seeds of suspicion and distance come up, the soilders frisk some youth since they do not know who they are, the young students are alarmed, they feel further alienated- what the hell do these soilders think of themselves.....how can they do it to me, i m just another student, they go back and tell it to the others, and lo and behold, the soilders are an occupation force.
on the other hand, the poor chap the soilder gets flak from the locals, they feel he is an enemy, he feels the locals are schemeing against him, and a bullet from any side would come and kill him......he is a human being after all, in an army fatigue that's it.....he is the occupation force, alienated from the populance,
over a period of time, the suspicion grows on both sides, the kashmiri youth narrate tales of demeaning attitude of soilders, on the other side, every new soilder who comes to duty in the valley gets to know about "the locals are unfriendly"...circle complete, and we are standing against each other.......

homegrown militancy gives rise to foreign terrorist, they bully locals for food and shelter, and dress like locals, the same story goes on, the averages catch up, for 1 of 1000 terrorist the soilder has to frisk another 999, that s 999 locals annoyed, for 1 soilder killed in action , another 100 get to hear about the "excesses" and "enemity" of the kashmiris......wonderful situation.....

to improve matters further, some kashmiri/kashmiri looking youth sneaks into the indian cities, plant bombs and kill people, these 2 or 3 people get away, an ordinary kashmiri in indian cities is now under the needle of suspicion, again we do not know who is a terrorist and who is a good guy......and so kashmiris are alienated from ordinary indians, and indians are wary of kashmiris, kahin ye kashmiri atankwadi to nahi...........so much for india, some 5000+ people get killed in the regular blasts across india

dateline 2008, max peace in the valley, no one trusts the other side, and then there are demonstrations by the thousands, poor soilders stand in the way, a disgruntled youth pelts a stone, he could not stand the army; the poor soldier does not know when would the next fire come, he is afraid,fires a air shot, and the sound of the shot ruins the matters, its a free for all from here on........stones vs stones, stones vs fire, fire vs fire.......one shot from the crowd and the area goes up in army fire, chaos complete

Pray tell me, were there oft-mentioned I-cards in Kashmir before 1990, why not, and why are they needed now, may be i have tried to explain that above- since there was no other way to tell a kashmiri from the one holding a gun, in a conflict the first thing to be tossed out of the window is the respect for the civilians. No one, absolutely no one wants to kill another person, even if it is a armyman, no one loves to pelt stones at total strangers, but this happens today, may be we all are to be blamed for this....may be every indian soldier should have learnt to appreciate kashmiri identity, and may be every kashmiri should have learnt to diffrentiate between rumors and facts, why do the hurriyat leaders have indian security, who killed mirwaiz way back in the 90's, over the last 2 decades, more than 25000 officials deaths have been reported in the valley, more than 2000 soldiers lost their lives, and close to 3000 lost their limbs, who is responsible for all these deaths- rhetoric from all political parties, be it from the valley or the indian mainstream, each of the hurriyat leaders were ready to contest elections, signing allegiance to the indian constitution in 1988, today they are india baiters, Mr Sayyed and PDP- the less said the better, he was the indian home minister in the most turbulent time of kashmir, and he could not do anything for his homeland, the army and the police were under his control, why did he not press for autonomy then, was it because that was when he had a standing in the mainstream indian politics, and then he realised he was being marginalised, and moved to the state.

and poor jammu guys, for the situation in the valley, they lived under president's rule for around 14 years, unki galti kya hai, that they are historically(OK for the last 2 centuries) been with kashmir, so they erupted too........

the issue with democracy, everyone wants to be a leader, everyone wants to be heard, kashmir - your blogs say every 10th man is a leader, jammu- "indigenous leaders", and india mein to political leaders ki koi kami nahi hai.....

however somehow, its the common man like you and me who faces the brunt - ordinary kashmiris become matryrs, poor lowest rung soldiers get killed, hamare "sarparast leaders" fly betwen srinagar, jammu and delhi on will, you and me get stuck in chakka jams, your school and college schedules get blocked due to hartals and processions, their kids are safely studying law at the best law schools in UK and Mid east, we are the enemies of each other, soldier vs the kashmiri youth, kashmiri bloggers vs the "patriotic" indian bloggers, our leaders from across the banihal argue in the tv studios, and then after the recording drive back to the closest 5-star hotel for friendly chit chat................

what is it for, who is it for....... in every society, there is a 2% vocal class, who is the voice of the rest 98%, these 2% make the noises and the rest 98% suffer, this distrust for each other roots from the bad apples-2% of the society, and we are the sufferers........ people from kashmir have highlighted the suffering of old fathers and mothers who lost their only son, even the soldiers have families who live sadly after they die, every one killed in the blasts has someone waiting for them at home, think about it - give peace a chance........

Disclaimer - this was a completely personal view on things, i m sure tempers everywhere are running high, just think about it...all bouquets/brickbats are welcome
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mee
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:52 am

Good write-up Suchi. I will reply to it later. The other guy "hated-in" on the other thread is getting dillusional now.
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mee
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:53 am

Quote :
The popular belief in the valley then was that the pundits are the "indian agents" in the valley, simply because they were better off than the average muslim kashmiri...

this is a wrong observation to make especially when pandits were no better off than the muslims, after the land reforms by Sheikh abdullah (40 years since the date); the equitable employment opportunities, and the fact that most businesses are run by mulsims. Could you elaborate on what basis you came to such a conclusion that pandits were better off than muslims? (then your subsequent point fails as well because you suggest that ISI incited the kashmiri youth because of this inequity; instead of a sincere longing for freedom from an occupying country)

Quote :
poor soilders stand in the way, a disgruntled youth pelts a stone, he could not stand the army; the poor soldier does not know when would the next fire come, he is afraid,fires a air shot, and the sound of the shot ruins the matters, its a free for all from here on

nice, romantic and defensive way to portray the 'heroic' and 'demanding' life of an Indian soldier - in fiction. the fact remains that these are the same barbaric goons who aimed at and killed 39 unarmed KAshmiri protestors in cold blood. No amount of whitewashing can take away that. This is indefensible and India has lost all credibility it had. It is a colonizer and this is what occupiers do - no matter whether it is Israel in Palestine, US in Iraq, or Russia in Osetia. The occupiers will always justiy their soldier's barbaric deeds.

Quote :
No one, absolutely no one wants to kill another person, even if it is a armyman
Unless he happens to be a sick Indian soldier who hates everything kashmiri muslim. Or a sick Israeli soldier who hates everything Palestinian. Or a sick Serbian soldier, who hates everything Bosnian. Or a sick US soldier who does what we saw done at abu ghraib...so on and so forth. You have no concept of what it is like in Kashmir and what barbarity your Indian soldierr are committing here. Stop defending you soldiers here, if you have an iota of consciousness, you would call for these soldiers to be sentenced to death - just like you are hell bent on sending Afzal guru to death.

Quote :
why do the hurriyat leaders have indian security,

They are not protected by Indian security; they have Kashmir police - the same police that will protect them after Kashmir is independentt. We have no plans of disbanding the Kashmir police. However, perpetrators of human rights crimes will be punished to the full extent. Unless if India decides to shield them. and offer them refugee status in India.

Quote :
even the soldiers have families who live sadly after they die

the soldiers made a voluntary choice to pick up arms for India and come to Kashmir, with every possibility that they would die in action. the protestors and countless kashmiri civilians did not make that choice. they were peaceful demonstrators and innocent victims of India's tyranny.
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Adi
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PostSubject: deadlocked arguments   Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:36 am

@suchi: that was well written. sadly, the mess is beyond repair, goodwill is almost impossible. now, kashmir loves to hate india and vice versa. leaders on both sides don't want peace, it won't work to their benefit.
@mee: biased view. rants won't grant you freedom. thats what politicans do.
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Adi
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PostSubject: is this all we can do?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:59 am

we have raking up each others history and have been endlessly cursing each other...it is like we all love to hate each other. on the kashmir forum, instead of sincerely discussing what future we can work out for ourselves and kashmir as a whole, we are fighting like little kids. great going. we are close to a solution.
if all those indians-who-think-they-represent-india or the 'patriotic' ones can't understand what's going on in kashmir and don't know what they have gone through and cannot stop from branding the kashmiris as terrorists, fundamentals etc, please read up, get your facts right and then debate. look, we have created a mess there, a lot of goodwill has been lost. those venting out against india or hinduism wouldn't have done if our sick politicians made those mistakes. i have been there for a short time and i could as well read the agony and anger behind their eyes.
just because the internet is a free for all place where you can vent your everyday frustration, it ain't gonna work. too much ill-will has already been created. we ain't gonna be making peace with anyone if this what everyone does.
and yes, to all the kashmiris, i think you can ignore this little hate-mongers and instead strive to find a meaningful dialogue with someone who can understand each other's issues.
i mean, as an indian it hurts to see a fellow indian spew venom against someone, more than seeing someone else spewing venom against an indian.
for a lot of those kashmiris posting here, who have generalized indians and branded us as tyrants and sick bastards, please, hang on...there are a lot of us who would want to help. I'd genuinely like to see a peaceful kashmir without problems. And would be happier if we that could happen with kashmir as a working/autonomous component within india.
so i ask, is this all we can do on a forum? can't we converge on a few good ideas and analyze it like good fellas? i mean, for the leaders, it is easy to rally around people's sentiments and screw them later. but at least as responsible citizens, we can do something for our own future, can't we?
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:36 pm

Here is my attempt:

Human Rights Violations

Q: Has Indian Army committed human rights abuses in Kashmir valley?
A. Yes

Q: Is Kashmir the only state where human rights violations have been committed?
A: No. Human rights violations have occurred in all states without exception.

Q: Are you sure that human rights violations have occurred in all states.
A: Yes

Q: Are their any other countries who have committed human rights abuses.
A: Yes, all countries without any exception.

Q: You mean UK, USA, Japan, China, Germany, France, Russia commit human rights violations.
A: Yes, without exception.

Q: Have the Kashmir separatists carried out human rights violation
A: Yes, they have also carried out human rights violation.

Q: Who has not carried out human rights violations
A: No one.

Q: Is it possible to decrease human rights violations in Kashmir.
A: Yes

Q: Is it possible to eliminate human rights violations in Kashmir
A: No, not under current situation.
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peace
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PostSubject: @hated-in   Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:05 pm

dear brother..
this seems to be one of the most true and factual write-ups by u..but in all the previous cases u or other people never accepted the human rights abuses in kashmir by india whatever the reason maybe...people here talk about kashmiris as pakistani buddies...rubbish and nonsense...
....the point is if there are human rights voilations in kashmir by both india and pakistan then what is the way out,..india is holding back its economy by spending a huge amount of its budget on defence as is the case with pakistan and many more countries where it should have been on education and poverty or industries..y cnt we here atleast agree that india,pakistan and kashmir are heading towards wrong directions...the only solution to the present problem is the final and ultimate settlement of the united kashmir which existed before 1947...let the people of kashmir decide what they want and mind u elections is not any solution..even vajpayee had to agree that most of the elections here were rigged...u cnt expect elections to be absolutely free and fair under the presence of more than 7 lac army people..let the indian nation fulfill the promise of nehru and hold a referendum here under the supervision of neutral authority...same thing has to be done in pakistan also..
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peace
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PostSubject: let us be humans first   Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:36 pm

'Leave men, CRPF women troopers are ruthless'

ARIF SHAFI WANI



Srinagar, Aug 28: A would be mother yearns for the day when she would give birth to a new born baby but this yearning turned into nightmare for the 31-year old Afrooza who was subjected to inhuman treatment by paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) men on her way to maternity hospital.
Writhing in pain, Afrooza lies in lap of her husband on a bed in labour room of Lal Ded hospital, where gynecologists are fighting hard to save the fetus, which she preserved dearly for more than eight months. The incident took place on Tuesday (August 26) at Hyderpora when Afrooza was on her way to Lal Ded Hospital. She was ruthlessly beaten up by CRPF troopers who didn't pay heed to her repeated pleas that she is pregnant and needs immediate medical aid.
She lost lot of blood due to beating and had to be operated upon. Doctors say due to serious injuries there are minimal chances of the survival of the fetus.
"The female CRPF troopers severely thrashed me without any reason," Afrooza told Greater Kashmir.
Afrooza hails from Maisuma and had gone to her parental home at Hyderpora so that in case of emergency she would get admitted in a private maternity nursing home there.
However, destiny had something else in store for her. When Afrooza developed pain she was admitted in the private nursing home but doctors there referred her to the Lal Ded Hospital.
"When we reached Hyderpora, a group of women CRPF troopers stopped our vehicle. I pleaded before them to allow us to move towards the hospital. However, they dragged Afrooza out of the car," said Afrooza's mother, Zaina.
"I pleaded before the troopers that I am expecting a baby and have to immediately reach the hospital. But they hit my stomach and private parts with rifle butts and batons. I helplessly cried for mercy but they continued to thrash me. Finally I started to bleed profusely and fell unconscious," she said and broke down.
With the help of some pedestrians, who carried curfew passes and were out only because of some urgency, she was rushed to the hospital. "Due to continuous bleeding her haemogram is dangerously low. She was profusely bleeding from cervical area and had to be operated upon to
stop bleeding. Her fetus has minimal chances of survival," said a doctor wishing anonymity.
"Leave men, CRPF women troopers are ruthless," she said.
Her husband, Jan Muhammad, will soon register a case against CRPF.
"I will file a case against the accused troopers. If the police does not register the case I will approach the Court. I want justice. They nearly killed my wife," he shouted.
Most of the patients and attendants in the crowded labour room of valley's sole maternity hospital fume with anger seeing the condition of Afrooza.
She is also referred as lady who bore the brunt of merciless thrashing by CRPF troopers.
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Koshur
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:27 am

hated-in wrote:
Here is my attempt:

Human Rights Violations

Q: Has Indian Army committed human rights abuses in Kashmir valley?
A. Yes

Q: Is Kashmir the only state where human rights violations have been committed?
A: No. Human rights violations have occurred in all states without exception.

Q: Are you sure that human rights violations have occurred in all states.
A: Yes
.................
Q: Is it possible to eliminate human rights violations in Kashmir
A: No, not under current situation.
And that is the reason that you and all your human rights violations can stay south of the banihal pass, and let Kashmir be. We want none of your criminality here. Just pack up and leave. You people are not welcome here. How hard is it to grasp this concept "NOT WELCOME HERE"
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Koshur
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:34 am

ather wrote:
[b]'Leave men, CRPF women troopers are ruthless'


She was ruthlessly beaten up by CRPF troopers who didn't pay heed to her repeated pleas that she is pregnant and needs immediate medical aid.
She lost lot of blood due to beating and had to be operated upon. Doctors say due to serious injuries there are minimal chances of the survival of the fetus.
"The female CRPF troopers severely thrashed me without any reason," Afrooza told Greater Kashmir.
"I pleaded before the troopers that I am expecting a baby and have to immediately reach the hospital. But they hit my stomach and private parts with rifle butts and batons. I helplessly cried for mercy but they continued to thrash me.

Ather brother, nothing describes the barbaric nature of the Indian paramilitary personell and their hindutva sympathiser mindset than this tragic event. They are brought up this way. Just read the previous post by the hindutva agent 'hated-in' talking about human rights violations, such as these, as if justifying these attrocities by claiming that other countries are doing the same makes any sense at all . People such as him make me want to not only gain independence from india, but also to have absolutely no further relations with this country that harbours people with such views.
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Koshur
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:58 am

Adi wrote:
we have raking up each others history and have been endlessly cursing each other...it is like we all love to hate each other. on the kashmir forum, instead of sincerely discussing what future we can work out for ourselves and kashmir as a whole, we are fighting like little kids. great going. we are close to a solution.
if all those indians-who-think-they-represent-india or the 'patriotic' ones can't understand what's going on in kashmir and don't know what they have gone through and cannot stop from branding the kashmiris as terrorists, fundamentals etc, please read up, get your facts right and then debate. look, we have created a mess there, a lot of goodwill has been lost. those venting out against india or hinduism wouldn't have done if our sick politicians made those mistakes. i have been there for a short time and i could as well read the agony and anger behind their eyes.
just because the internet is a free for all place where you can vent your everyday frustration, it ain't gonna work. too much ill-will has already been created. we ain't gonna be making peace with anyone if this what everyone does.
and yes, to all the kashmiris, i think you can ignore this little hate-mongers and instead strive to find a meaningful dialogue with someone who can understand each other's issues.
i mean, as an indian it hurts to see a fellow indian spew venom against someone, more than seeing someone else spewing venom against an indian.
for a lot of those kashmiris posting here, who have generalized indians and branded us as tyrants and sick bastards, please, hang on...there are a lot of us who would want to help. I'd genuinely like to see a peaceful kashmir without problems. And would be happier if we that could happen with kashmir as a working/autonomous component within india.
so i ask, is this all we can do on a forum? can't we converge on a few good ideas and analyze it like good fellas? i mean, for the leaders, it is easy to rally around people's sentiments and screw them later. but at least as responsible citizens, we can do something for our own future, can't we?

Adi brother, I get your point. The fact that we are gauging each other's views here is part of the dialogue that you are referring to. Having a dialogue does not mean we necessarily have to exchange pleasantaries. As long as there is no cursing involved, I am ready to discuss anything. It will be a given that when there are incidents such as the criminal action against the pregnant lady by the "indian paramilitary personell", there will be heated emotions. I am fully aware that there are many reasonable voices in India such as yourself, and Suchi who are willing to listen without resorting to unjustifiable vitriol such as being spewed by other posters on here, but it is all part of the dialog.

Suchi, your post is well intentioned and definitely gives a good insight into what the average Indian feels about the happenings in Kashmir. However, you must have a sense of what an average Kashmiri feels, reading the strong reaction it generated. Regardless, your thoguhts are always welcome and hope you will keep writing more.
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MIr
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:16 am

India rejects UN Kashmir comment

Authorities are struggling to quell the protests by Muslims and Hindus
India has dismissed United Nations' comments on the recent violent clashes in Indian-administered Kashmir as "unwarranted" and "irresponsible".

A foreign ministry spokesman said India did not require any advice on the protection and promotion of human rights of its citizens.

The UN has called for an inquiry into the killings of civilians protesters.

India troops have killed nearly 40 protesters since June, most of them in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.

The protests were triggered by the allocation of land to a Hindu trust.

They have developed into the most serious protests in Indian-administered Kashmir in years.

'Victim of violence'

"We regret that the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has issued a statement on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. This is uncalled for and irresponsible," spokesman for the External Affairs Ministry Navtej Sarna said.

The UN should be aware that Jammu and Kashmir has been a "victim of terrorist violence" for almost two decades and all through this period, the authorities have acted within the law and with restraint, he said.

"Terrorist groups have targeted innocent civilians. They have not refrained from taking women and children as hostages as in the recent incident in Jammu," Mr Sarna said.

"In all their actions against terrorists, personnel of the security forces have sought to ensure that no innocent lives are lost and, for this objective, have on many occasions laid down their lives," he added.

On Wednesday, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a statement in Switzerland "calling on the Indian authorities and in particular security forces to respect the right to freedom of assembly and expression, and comply with international human rights principles in controlling the demonstrators".

"The use of force should be proportionate to the threat posed and firearms must only be used in dispersing a violent assembly to protect individuals against an imminent threat of death or serious injury," it said.

Massive protests

The United Nations called for a thorough and independent investigation into the killings.

It has also called on demonstrators "to protest using peaceful means only".

Indian-administered Kashmir has been hit by protests since June, after the government there granted land to a Hindu group that manages pilgrimage to a sacred Hindu shrine.

The move unleashed anger among Kashmir Muslims and has seen a re-emergence of mass demonstrations calling for independence from India.

The land transfer was subsequently abandoned, and that resulted in Hindus concentrated in the Jammu region of the state taking to the streets.

The Indian security forces have been heavily criticised for their handling of the protests and local people say many innocent people have been shot dead.

Many parts of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir are still under a curfew imposed last weekend.

A number of separatist leaders were placed under arrest ahead of a major rally called by separatists in Srinagar last Monday
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:21 pm

Quote :

this seems to be one of the most true and factual write-ups by u..but in all the previous cases u or other people never accepted the human rights abuses in kashmir by india whatever the reason maybe...people here talk about kashmiris as pakistani buddies...rubbish and nonsense...

Most people (including government) do accept that human rights violations have been committed in Kashmir. This has never been denied. It is also well accepted that Kashmirs have been alienated.

What we don't accept is the thought that religion, cast, ethnicity, etc should be the criteria for dividing the country. That is NOT going to happen. The sooner everybody realizes that the sooner violence and human rights abuses will go.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:26 pm

Quote :

And that is the reason that you and all your human rights violations can stay south of the banihal pass, and let Kashmir be. We want none of your criminality here. Just pack up and leave. You people are not welcome here. How hard is it to grasp this concept "NOT WELCOME HERE"

Off course, you choose to over look the human rights violations committed by terrorists who for over 20 years have systematically rid the valley of Kashmiri pandits and progressive Muslim merchants. As for packing up and leaving is concerned that's the thing that separatists such as yourself should be doing. Your best friend, the terrorist anarchy of Pakistan will welcome you with open arms.
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Kasim
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:31 pm

Quote :
What we don't accept is the thought that religion, cast, ethnicity, etc should be the criteria for dividing the country. That is NOT going to happen. The sooner everybody realizes that the sooner violence and human rights abuses will go

and when exactly do you plan to grasp the root of the cause of the Kashmir struggle?

We were never part of India to begin with. Hari Singh's accession was not legal and UN has given us a right to choose our destiny. Period. NOT A PART OF INDIA

So I hope you will understand the above when you read it slowly.
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Kasim
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:41 pm

Quote :
Off course, you choose to over look the human rights violations committed by terrorists who for over 20 years have systematically rid the valley of Kashmiri pandits and progressive Muslim merchants

Read the post titled "jagmohan made the pandits leave".
You have no grasp of the kashmir issue and are bringing up points that have been proven false longtime back. 200,000 kashmiris killed by the occupying indian barbarians and you want to compare that with less than 200 pandits deaths, which are sad and tragic nonetheless, but goes to show your communal thinking.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:46 pm

Quote :

and when exactly do you plan to grasp the root of the cause of the Kashmir struggle?

We were never part of India to begin with. Hari Singh's accession was not legal and UN has given us a right to choose our destiny. Period. NOT A PART OF INDIA

So I hope you will understand the above when you read it slowly.

The root cause is "religious extremism". The primary desire is to setup an Islamic fundamentalist state as espoused by many of the Kashmiri separatist leaders themselves.

As far as being part of India is concerned, India came into being in 1947 and Kashmir joined the union like any other princely state. So you were always part of India since "Republic of India" has existed. And even before that Kashmir always came under the Indian cultural sphere of Influence.

Indian influence in Kashmir is not new. What is new is the separatist movement and best friend Pakistan.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:05 pm

Quote :


The root cause is "religious extremism". The primary desire is to setup an Islamic fundamentalist state as espoused by many of the Kashmiri separatist leaders themselves.

As far as being part of India is concerned, India came into being in 1947 and Kashmir joined the union like any other princely state. So you were always part of India since "Republic of India" has existed. And even before that Kashmir always came under the Indian cultural sphere of Influence.

Indian influence in Kashmir is not new. What is new is the separatist movement and best friend Pakistan.

Kasmir is a muslim dominated state and due to which discrimination has meted to it.Surely we would like to impose Islamic law in the state.For your kind informatoin Islamic law is the most just law in the world where the interests of non-muslims are fully protected.It is the international media which is trying to malign the image of islam due to the vested interests of some countries who have control over the media.

The Maharaja of Jammu and kashmir was a hindu and acceded to India only because India was also a hindu nation, which was against the wishes of kasmiri muslims.Jammu and kashmir was an independent state and it was not necessary for the Maharaja to accede to India. It was only due to the fear of occupation by muslims of pakistan that forced him to accede to pakistan.We firmly beleive in two nation theory of Jinah which has been proved true by Hindu fundamentalists by discrimination,attrocities,ill will etc againt Muslims of kasmir.

Being under the cultural sphere of influence of India does not give it licence to occupy kashmir.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:40 pm

Quote :

Kasmir is a muslim dominated state and due to which discrimination has meted to it.

I am not sure what you mean by discrimination here. As far as I can see: 1) the economy of Kashmir is subsidized by rest of India, 2) non-Kashmirs can not buy land in Kashmir, yet Kashmiries can buy land anywhere in India, 3) You are not subjected to any "Hindu" laws since as a Muslim you have "Muslim Personal Law" in India. So I would definitely be interested in knowing what specific discrimination you are subjected to just because you are a Muslim as opposed to say a Parsi or a Christian or a Hindu in any other part of India.

Quote :

Surely we would like to impose Islamic law in the state. For your kind informatoin Islamic law is the most just law in the world where the interests of non-muslims are fully protected.

I don't know too much about Islamic law so won't comment on that, but what I am interested in knowing is how Kashmiri separatists who themselves cannot live under "secular laws" expect Buddhist and Hindus to live under their "Islamic law"?

Quote :

The Maharaja of Jammu and kashmir was a hindu and acceded to India only because India was also a hindu nation, which was against the wishes of kasmiri muslims.

No, he acceded to India because Pakistan tried to forcefully take over J&K. People in Kashmir valley resisted Pakistani invasion for several days until Indian troops came after Maharaja decided to accede.

Quote :

Jammu and kashmir was an independent state and it was not necessary for the Maharaja to accede to India.

Same can be said about any other princely state, but the choice to accede was given to rulers of princely states not to people of princely state. There was no reason why Kashmir should get any "extra" rights than what the rest got.

Quote :

We firmly beleive in two nation theory of Jinah

Please feel free to move into Pakistan then like millions did when the partition took place. Obviously you were sleeping when the partition happened otherwise you would have moved then. The only partition that is going to happen now is partition of Pakistan occupied Kashmir from Pakistan and its integration into India. Apparently, Pakistan didn't stick to rules when it invaded Kashmir. And with the pay pakistan seems to be descending into anarchy, it certainly looks like it will happen soon.

Quote :

Being under the cultural sphere of influence of India does not give it licence to occupy kashmir.

Yes I agree. Water does not need license to occupy ocean. Although from what I can see there are quite a few pollutants moving from Pakistan both into Kashmir and into oceans.
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Mukhtar
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:56 am

Quote :
I am not sure what you mean by discrimination here. As far as I can see: 1) the economy of Kashmir is subsidized by rest of India, 2) non-Kashmirs can not buy land in Kashmir, yet Kashmiries can buy land anywhere in India, 3) You are not subjected to any "Hindu" laws since as a Muslim you have "Muslim Personal Law" in India. So I would definitely be interested in knowing what specific discrimination you are subjected to just because you are a Muslim as opposed to say a Parsi or a Christian or a Hindu in any other part of India.

I think your memory is weak .the economic expoitation of kahmiris by India has already been discussed in this forum. You should go through the forum with cool mind and calm yourself.

Quote :
I don't know too much about Islamic law so won't comment on that, but what I am interested in knowing is how Kashmiri separatists who themselves cannot live under "secular laws" expect Buddhist and Hindus to live under their "Islamic law"?

Your secular laws are imperfect and hence not acceptable.Your laws may be secular but rarely implemented in true spirit. Here human rights are not implemented, not to talk of so called secular laws.If you doubt islamic laws go through islamic shariah, all your doubts will be cleared.

Quote :
No, he acceded to India because Pakistan tried to forcefully take over J&K. People in Kashmir valley resisted Pakistani invasion for several days until Indian troops came after Maharaja decided to accede.

Quote :
Same can be said about any other princely state, but the choice to accede was given to rulers of princely states not to people of princely state. There was no reason why Kashmir should get any "extra" rights than what the rest got.


Before cmmenting you should gothrough history of Jammu & Kashmir.First of all the so called accession is doubtful which was carried out in mysterious circumstances.Secondly the accession if carried out was only temporary and in respect of only three issues viz. DEFENCE,COMMUNICATION and EXTERNAL AFFAIRS. The right of self determination was recognised by the U.N. Security Council right at the time of accession.The muslim majority of J & K has opposed the accession right from the beginning and sacrificed their lives for the noble cause. I am posting brief history of J & K just for your knowledge which is as under:-


The Dogra dynasty lasted for a period of over hundred years and saw four
Maharajas – Gulab Singh (1846-57); Ranbir Singh (1857-85); Pratap Singh (1885-
1925) and Hari Singh (1925-52).
That was the time forced labour was prevalent and the wages of the artisans were
very low. Most of the people lived on a small quantity of rice. Gulab Singh employed
stern, often inhuman, measures to restore order.
The year 1931 requires a special mention for this was the time movement against
Dogra rule (autocracy) started. For the first time in the history of Kashmir people
openly opposed the oppression from the rulers. Same year July 13, twenty one (21)
Kashmiri Muslims fell to the bullets of tyrannical soldiers outside Srinagar central jail.
This year marks the saga of sacrifices and that go on continuing.
1932: Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah and Mirwaiz Mohammed Yosuf Shah form the
All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference.
1939: Muslim Conference is formally dissolved and Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah
sets up the J&K National Conference (NC).
1946: National Conference launches the Quit Kashmir movement, directed at the
abrogation of the Treaty of Amritsar. Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah is arrested. 1947:
In August when Indian subcontinent became independent from Britain, all the rulers
of 565 princely states had to decide which of the new dominions to join, India or
Pakistan?
The ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, whose state was situated between the two new
countries, could not decide which country to join. He was Hindu, his population was
predominantly Muslim. He therefore did nothing and pretended an attack of colic,
which had spared him the decision Lord Mountbatten, the then Governor-General
had wanted him to take before August 14.
Instead he signed a “standstill” agreement with Pakistan in order that services such
as trade, travel and communication would be uninterrupted. India did not sign a
similar agreement.
Same year on October 22, Pashtun tribesmen from Pakistan’s North West Frontier
Province invaded Kashmir, hearing communal violence against Muslims in the state
and eager to precipitate its accession to Pakistan.
Lord Mountbatten believed the developing situation would be less explosive if the
state were to accede to India, on the understanding that this would only be
temporary prior to “a referendum, plebiscite, election.”
According to the terms of the Instrument of Accession, Indian’s jurisdiction was to
extend to external affairs, defence and communication.
Exactly when did Hari Singh sign the Instrument of Accession, has been hotly
debated for over 59 years. Official Indian accounts state that in the early hours of the
morning of October 26, Hari Singh fled from Srinagar, arriving in Jammu later in the
day, where he was met by V P Menon, representative of Prime Minister Jawaharlal
Nehru, and signed the Instrument of Accession. On the morning of October 27,
Indian troops were airlifted in to Srinagar to repel Pakistani’s raiders.
However a research from British sources quoted by Victoria Schofield, author of
Kashmir in Conflict has indicated that Hari Singh did not reach Jammu until the
evening of October 26 and that due to poor flying conditions, V P Menon was unable
to get to Jammu until the morning of October 27, by which time Indian troops were
already arriving in Srinagar.
Pakistan immediately contested the accession, suggesting that it was fraudulent,
that the Maharaja acted under duress and that he had no right to sign an agreement
with India, when “standstill” agreement with Pakistan was already in force.
Pakistani’s also argued that because Hari Singh fled from the valley of Kahmir, he
was not in control of his state and therefore not in a position to take a decision on
behalf of his people.
In the context of the Pakistan’s claim that there is a dispute over the State of Jammu
and Kashmir, the accession issue forms a significant aspect of their agreement.
However Jagmon in his book My Frozen Turulence in Kashmir quotes gists of
Maharaja Hari Singh’s letter of October 26, 1947 to Lord Mountbatten and latter’s
reply to Maharaja on October 27, 1947, which reads as:
Maharaja Hari Singh said: “With the conditions obtaining at present in my State and
the great emergency of situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from
Indian Dominion. Naturally they can not send the help asked for by me without my
State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so and I
attach the Instrument of Accession for acceptance by your Government.”
Lord Mountbatten in reply to Maharaja’s letter writes: “In the special circumstances
mentioned by Your Highness, my government has decided to accept the accession
of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. It is my government’s wish that as soon
as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invaders,
the question of State’s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.
Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness’s appeal for military aid, action has been
taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir to help your own forces to
defend your territory and to protect the lives, property and honour of your people.”
On the basis of Maharaja’s “accession” India claims ownership of the entire State
which includes the approximately one third of the territory currently administered by
Pakistan.


Quote :
Please feel free to move into Pakistan then like millions did when the partition took place. Obviously you were sleeping when the partition happened otherwise you would have moved then. The only partition that is going to happen now is partition of Pakistan occupied Kashmir from Pakistan and its integration into India. Apparently, Pakistan didn't stick to rules when it invaded Kashmir. And with the pay pakistan seems to be descending into anarchy, it certainly looks like it will happen soon.




Quote :
Yes I agree. Water does not need license to occupy ocean. Although from what I can see there are quite a few pollutants moving from Pakistan both into Kashmir and into oceans.

The people which moved to pakistan lived in area with hindu majority.They were forced by Hindus to leave .They were ruthlessley murdered,raped and looted.Kashmir is a muslim state and no hindu fanatics can force us to leave.Stop day dreaming. Kasmir belongs to kashmiris.Kindly remember this! Till this date Indians can not buy a piece of land here and still you are dreaming of taking it free. We know you people need only land of kashmir and not the people,but Insha Allah! You will be defeated in your designs.
By the way I hate Pakistan as much as you do. We will Insha Allah take their part of Kashmir also and Kashmir will an independent nation Insha Allah!
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peace
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PostSubject: legally illegal accession   Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:45 am

@hated-in

..now if i may explain with references the accession of kashmir to india...u wrote something which shows ur stupidness sorry to say...
1)clause 4 or 5 of indan independence act states that all the agreements that the britishers have entered into with the indian independent states (princly states) become null and void after 14th and 15th of august 1947 respectively...this act automatically ends the dogra rule in kashmir on 14th august 1947..now one has to ask the legality of maharaja hari singh's sinitures (if any exists) on instrument of accession when his rule had automatically ended..in any case did a hindu ruler had the right, moral if not legal, to decide the fate of his subjects majority of which were muslims.in junagadh which was a mirror image of J&K(muslim ruler and hindu subjects), the government of india ruled that accession to pakistan is invalid stating that a muslim ruler had no right to decide the fate of his hindu subjects..and made kashmir an opposite case.
2)at the time of partition the princley states had the choice to either accede to india or to pakistan or sign a standstill agreement which would allow them to do trade and other exchanges with both the countries.maharaja signed the standstill agreement with pakistan but india refused to do so..the accession was legally invalid as it voilated the standstill agreement with
pakistan.
3)the instrument of accession was conditional..if tomorrow there would have been a reference to the people which decided against accession to india, then acceptence by india of that accession would be cancelled.if not, then india would be denying the right of the people to decide..isnt
india denying us that right??
4)and finally what about the promise made by pandit nehru regarding a referendum in J&K which would give the people of the state there right to decide there future???




...a very good write-up muqhtar bhai...but will they understand it..???
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PostSubject: BANNED BY ADMIN   Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:39 am

BANNED!! BY ADMIN.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:50 am

Quote :

I think your memory is weak .the economic expoitation of kahmiris by India has already been discussed in this forum. You should go through the forum with cool mind and calm yourself.

I am already calm. Couldn't be more calm and you still haven't told me how Muslims in India are being discriminated against.

Quote :

Your secular laws are imperfect and hence not acceptable.Your laws may be secular but rarely implemented in true spirit. Here human rights are not implemented, not to talk of so called secular laws.If you doubt islamic laws go through islamic shariah, all your doubts will be cleared.

Is god going to come down and implement your so called "perfect" Shariat laws? If not, I suggest you stop harping about them. The only places that I have seen your "perfect" Shariat laws being implemented is Pakistan and Afghanistan and from what I can see both these places have gone to hell. But do feel free to move to Pakistan if you are not already there.

Quote :

Before cmmenting you should gothrough history of Jammu & Kashmir.First of all the so called accession is doubtful which was carried out in mysterious circumstances.Secondly the accession if carried out was only temporary and in respect of only three issues viz. DEFENCE,COMMUNICATION and EXTERNAL AFFAIRS. The right of self determination was recognised by the U.N.

You see the problem is that UN is not going to be helping you to establish a fundamentalist state. UN already has its hands full with fundamentalists for now. And UN itself does not give much weight to its resolutions on Kashmir anymore. Unfortunately for you the world has moved on while you still continue to live in past.

UN resolution that you are talking about was not a binding resolution in the first place like say UN resolutions on Iraq. UN resolutions on Kashmir was simply a suggestion that India MAY consider carrying out a vote to determine the will of people AFTER, I repeat AFTER, Pakistan vacates Pakistani occupied Kashmir. So, your best friend Pakistan, will first have to give up its part of Kashmir to India before India may or may not decide to hold a plebiscite their. Has your best friend Pakistan vacated Kashmir yet?

Also, as far as I know, UN is a secular organization and doesn't operate under Shariat law. So given your love for perfect Islamic law I am surprised that you even recognize UN.

Quote :

I am posting brief history of J & K just for your knowledge which is as unde

You don't need to do this in future as there are enough historical sources on the internet. Simply pointing to the source would suffice

Code:

For example http://jammukashmir.nic.in/profile/jkhist.htm (from the official website of J&K government)

Quote :

The people which moved to pakistan lived in area with hindu majority.They were forced by Hindus to leave .They were ruthlessley murdered,raped and looted.Kashmir is a muslim state and no hindu fanatics can force us to leave.

Same thing happened with Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, Christians in Pakistan and Bangladesh who moved to India. So I am not sure whats the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that Muslims are not capable of carrying out heinous acts of violence?

Quote :

We will Insha Allah take their part of Kashmir also and Kashmir will an independent nation Insha Allah!

J&K isn't going anywhere. The only partition that is going to happen is the partition of Kashmir that is illegally occupied by Pakistan and its integration into India. However, do feel free to move into Pakistan if you are not already there. Make sure you don't move into POK, otherwise you will find yourself back in India again sooner or later.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:37 am

Quote :

1)clause 4 or 5 of indan independence act states that all the agreements that the britishers have entered into with the indian independent states (princly states) become null and void after 14th and 15th of august 1947 respectively...this act automatically ends the dogra rule in kashmir on 14th august 1947

Show me a source (a url, a website, etc) that discusses this in specific relation to "end of dogra rule"? And if you find one do show both sides of the story instead of focusing on just your viewpoint.

Quote :

2)at the time of partition the princley states had the choice to either accede to india or to pakistan or sign a standstill agreement which would allow them to do trade and other exchanges with both the countries.maharaja signed the standstill agreement with pakistan but india refused to do so

Agreed.

Quote :

..the accession was legally invalid as it voilated the standstill agreement with pakistan.

Irrelevant. Pakistan destroyed the standstill agreement when it illegally forced its way into Kashmir. The rulers of princely states were free to decide if they wanted to join India or Pakistan and ruler of Kashmir decided to join India just like many other princely states. The right to join India was not given to general population of any princely state. It was given to rulers of princely states. India acted completely legally.

Just becuase you choose to ignore your best friend Pakistan's illegal actions doesn't mean it becomes right. The only legal issue with respect to Kashmir is Pakistan's illegal occupation of large portions of J&K territory.

Quote :

3)the instrument of accession was conditional..if tomorrow there would have been a reference to the people which decided against accession to india, then acceptence by india of that accession would be cancelled.if not, then india would be denying the right of the people to decide..isnt india denying us that right??

It gives control of Jammu and Kashmir princely state (includes Jammu, Kashmir, Northern Areas, Ladakh and Aksai Chin) to the government of India. There is no wording in Instrument of accession to indicate that it was conditional or temporary.

Quote :

4)and finally what about the promise made by pandit nehru regarding a referendum in J&K which would give the people of the state there right to decide there future???

Your fight is for establishing an Islamic fundamentalist state not a democracy, so what does a plebiscite have to do with that? Nehru was a secularist. So before harping on plebiscite get rid of the fanatics in Kashmir. In any case, has your best friend Pakistan given back its illegally occupied J&K territory to India? Not only that, your best friend Pakistan illegally seceded a part of its illegally occupied J&K territory to China and you simply choose to ignore that. The only entity here that cares about integrity of J&K here is India.
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PostSubject: Re: Kashmir vs India   Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:14 pm

Sorry brothers and sisters,

I apologise for not getting to the obsene post by "PETER" earlier. As you are aware, we are going through untold miseries in Kashmir at the moment. We have all our computers in a secure location and getting to it in the curfew is a challenge.

I appreciate the comments by everyone and would highly recommend that everyone of you posting here register their accounts so that we dont allow posters like these ruin the debate here. Then I can set it up so that only registered users only can post here.

I will go with the consensus opinion. What would you think about changing the forum so that only regsitered users can post here?

Pray that we all get out of this oppression safely.
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