To begin with, none of us knows the future, so future is not being discussed here, and what I am trying to put in here is from an independent point of view, these are purely my thoughts and you may disagree to it.... Especially at the heights of the Azaadi movement, this post may appear to be too simplistic......

circa 1989-90 , Pakistan had had a crushing defeat in its Khalistan movement, and the J&K elections in 1988 got rigged nicely by Congress in Delhi/NC in the valley. All people disgruntled with it including the entire current top brass of the Hurriyat, erupted, and Pakistan and the ISI got the oppurtune moment, spurring youth from the valley, to raise arms and get the pundits sidelined. The popular belief in the valley then was that the pundits are the "indian agents" in the valley, simply because they were better off than the average muslim kashmiri...end result- Kashmiri youth went across the border, got trained in arms and battle fatigue and believed the azaadi is across the corner by force. Pundits had to leave the valley, and army had to be called in, the army strength went up from close to 70 thousand soilders in kashmir to close to 2.5 lakhs

Now, think from a INdian soilder's perspective .....poor guy from BIhar.Tamilnadu, AP gets posted here, knows zilch of the kashmiri language, and zilch at times of hindi too(esp south indian soilders), the kashmiri youth(the miltancy then was still homegrown) are indistinguishable from any other kashmiri walking on the roads.....but they shoot and fire on the soilders, how do they know, who s a friend and who s an enemy, its a war zone, and the first thing to go for a toss in was zones is civil liberty, check posts and I cards come up, and the seeds of suspicion and distance come up, the soilders frisk some youth since they do not know who they are, the young students are alarmed, they feel further alienated- what the hell do these soilders think of themselves.....how can they do it to me, i m just another student, they go back and tell it to the others, and lo and behold, the soilders are an occupation force.
on the other hand, the poor chap the soilder gets flak from the locals, they feel he is an enemy, he feels the locals are schemeing against him, and a bullet from any side would come and kill him......he is a human being after all, in an army fatigue that's it.....he is the occupation force, alienated from the populance,
over a period of time, the suspicion grows on both sides, the kashmiri youth narrate tales of demeaning attitude of soilders, on the other side, every new soilder who comes to duty in the valley gets to know about "the locals are unfriendly"...circle complete, and we are standing against each other.......

homegrown militancy gives rise to foreign terrorist, they bully locals for food and shelter, and dress like locals, the same story goes on, the averages catch up, for 1 of 1000 terrorist the soilder has to frisk another 999, that s 999 locals annoyed, for 1 soilder killed in action , another 100 get to hear about the "excesses" and "enemity" of the kashmiris......wonderful situation.....

to improve matters further, some kashmiri/kashmiri looking youth sneaks into the indian cities, plant bombs and kill people, these 2 or 3 people get away, an ordinary kashmiri in indian cities is now under the needle of suspicion, again we do not know who is a terrorist and who is a good guy......and so kashmiris are alienated from ordinary indians, and indians are wary of kashmiris, kahin ye kashmiri atankwadi to nahi...........so much for india, some 5000+ people get killed in the regular blasts across india

dateline 2008, max peace in the valley, no one trusts the other side, and then there are demonstrations by the thousands, poor soilders stand in the way, a disgruntled youth pelts a stone, he could not stand the army; the poor soldier does not know when would the next fire come, he is afraid,fires a air shot, and the sound of the shot ruins the matters, its a free for all from here on........stones vs stones, stones vs fire, fire vs fire.......one shot from the crowd and the area goes up in army fire, chaos complete

Pray tell me, were there oft-mentioned I-cards in Kashmir before 1990, why not, and why are they needed now, may be i have tried to explain that above- since there was no other way to tell a kashmiri from the one holding a gun, in a conflict the first thing to be tossed out of the window is the respect for the civilians. No one, absolutely no one wants to kill another person, even if it is a armyman, no one loves to pelt stones at total strangers, but this happens today, may be we all are to be blamed for this....may be every indian soldier should have learnt to appreciate kashmiri identity, and may be every kashmiri should have learnt to diffrentiate between rumors and facts, why do the hurriyat leaders have indian security, who killed mirwaiz way back in the 90's, over the last 2 decades, more than 25000 officials deaths have been reported in the valley, more than 2000 soldiers lost their lives, and close to 3000 lost their limbs, who is responsible for all these deaths- rhetoric from all political parties, be it from the valley or the indian mainstream, each of the hurriyat leaders were ready to contest elections, signing allegiance to the indian constitution in 1988, today they are india baiters, Mr Sayyed and PDP- the less said the better, he was the indian home minister in the most turbulent time of kashmir, and he could not do anything for his homeland, the army and the police were under his control, why did he not press for autonomy then, was it because that was when he had a standing in the mainstream indian politics, and then he realised he was being marginalised, and moved to the state.

and poor jammu guys, for the situation in the valley, they lived under president's rule for around 14 years, unki galti kya hai, that they are historically(OK for the last 2 centuries) been with kashmir, so they erupted too........

the issue with democracy, everyone wants to be a leader, everyone wants to be heard, kashmir - your blogs say every 10th man is a leader, jammu- "indigenous leaders", and india mein to political leaders ki koi kami nahi hai.....

however somehow, its the common man like you and me who faces the brunt - ordinary kashmiris become matryrs, poor lowest rung soldiers get killed, hamare "sarparast leaders" fly betwen srinagar, jammu and delhi on will, you and me get stuck in chakka jams, your school and college schedules get blocked due to hartals and processions, their kids are safely studying law at the best law schools in UK and Mid east, we are the enemies of each other, soldier vs the kashmiri youth, kashmiri bloggers vs the "patriotic" indian bloggers, our leaders from across the banihal argue in the tv studios, and then after the recording drive back to the closest 5-star hotel for friendly chit chat................

what is it for, who is it for....... in every society, there is a 2% vocal class, who is the voice of the rest 98%, these 2% make the noises and the rest 98% suffer, this distrust for each other roots from the bad apples-2% of the society, and we are the sufferers........ people from kashmir have highlighted the suffering of old fathers and mothers who lost their only son, even the soldiers have families who live sadly after they die, every one killed in the blasts has someone waiting for them at home, think about it - give peace a chance........

Disclaimer - this was a completely personal view on things, i m sure tempers everywhere are running high, just think about it...all bouquets/brickbats are welcome

Good write-up Suchi. I will reply to it later. The other guy "hated-in" on the other thread is getting dillusional now.

@suchi: that was well written. sadly, the mess is beyond repair, goodwill is almost impossible. now, kashmir loves to hate india and vice versa. leaders on both sides don't want peace, it won't work to their benefit.
@mee: biased view. rants won't grant you freedom. thats what politicans do.

we have raking up each others history and have been endlessly cursing each other...it is like we all love to hate each other. on the kashmir forum, instead of sincerely discussing what future we can work out for ourselves and kashmir as a whole, we are fighting like little kids. great going. we are close to a solution.
if all those indians-who-think-they-represent-india or the 'patriotic' ones can't understand what's going on in kashmir and don't know what they have gone through and cannot stop from branding the kashmiris as terrorists, fundamentals etc, please read up, get your facts right and then debate. look, we have created a mess there, a lot of goodwill has been lost. those venting out against india or hinduism wouldn't have done if our sick politicians made those mistakes. i have been there for a short time and i could as well read the agony and anger behind their eyes.
just because the internet is a free for all place where you can vent your everyday frustration, it ain't gonna work. too much ill-will has already been created. we ain't gonna be making peace with anyone if this what everyone does.
and yes, to all the kashmiris, i think you can ignore this little hate-mongers and instead strive to find a meaningful dialogue with someone who can understand each other's issues.
i mean, as an indian it hurts to see a fellow indian spew venom against someone, more than seeing someone else spewing venom against an indian.
for a lot of those kashmiris posting here, who have generalized indians and branded us as tyrants and sick bastards, please, hang on...there are a lot of us who would want to help. I'd genuinely like to see a peaceful kashmir without problems. And would be happier if we that could happen with kashmir as a working/autonomous component within india.
so i ask, is this all we can do on a forum? can't we converge on a few good ideas and analyze it like good fellas? i mean, for the leaders, it is easy to rally around people's sentiments and screw them later. but at least as responsible citizens, we can do something for our own future, can't we?

Here is my attempt:

Human Rights Violations

Q: Has Indian Army committed human rights abuses in Kashmir valley?
A. Yes

Q: Is Kashmir the only state where human rights violations have been committed?
A: No. Human rights violations have occurred in all states without exception.

Q: Are you sure that human rights violations have occurred in all states.
A: Yes

Q: Are their any other countries who have committed human rights abuses.
A: Yes, all countries without any exception.

Q: You mean UK, USA, Japan, China, Germany, France, Russia commit human rights violations.
A: Yes, without exception.

Q: Have the Kashmir separatists carried out human rights violation
A: Yes, they have also carried out human rights violation.

Q: Who has not carried out human rights violations
A: No one.

Q: Is it possible to decrease human rights violations in Kashmir.
A: Yes

Q: Is it possible to eliminate human rights violations in Kashmir
A: No, not under current situation.

dear brother..
this seems to be one of the most true and factual write-ups by u..but in all the previous cases u or other people never accepted the human rights abuses in kashmir by india whatever the reason maybe...people here talk about kashmiris as pakistani buddies...rubbish and nonsense...
....the point is if there are human rights voilations in kashmir by both india and pakistan then what is the way out,..india is holding back its economy by spending a huge amount of its budget on defence as is the case with pakistan and many more countries where it should have been on education and poverty or industries..y cnt we here atleast agree that india,pakistan and kashmir are heading towards wrong directions...the only solution to the present problem is the final and ultimate settlement of the united kashmir which existed before 1947...let the people of kashmir decide what they want and mind u elections is not any solution..even vajpayee had to agree that most of the elections here were rigged...u cnt expect elections to be absolutely free and fair under the presence of more than 7 lac army people..let the indian nation fulfill the promise of nehru and hold a referendum here under the supervision of neutral authority...same thing has to be done in pakistan also..

India rejects UN Kashmir comment

Authorities are struggling to quell the protests by Muslims and Hindus
India has dismissed United Nations' comments on the recent violent clashes in Indian-administered Kashmir as "unwarranted" and "irresponsible".

A foreign ministry spokesman said India did not require any advice on the protection and promotion of human rights of its citizens.

The UN has called for an inquiry into the killings of civilians protesters.

India troops have killed nearly 40 protesters since June, most of them in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.

The protests were triggered by the allocation of land to a Hindu trust.

They have developed into the most serious protests in Indian-administered Kashmir in years.

'Victim of violence'

"We regret that the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has issued a statement on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. This is uncalled for and irresponsible," spokesman for the External Affairs Ministry Navtej Sarna said.

The UN should be aware that Jammu and Kashmir has been a "victim of terrorist violence" for almost two decades and all through this period, the authorities have acted within the law and with restraint, he said.

"Terrorist groups have targeted innocent civilians. They have not refrained from taking women and children as hostages as in the recent incident in Jammu," Mr Sarna said.

"In all their actions against terrorists, personnel of the security forces have sought to ensure that no innocent lives are lost and, for this objective, have on many occasions laid down their lives," he added.

On Wednesday, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a statement in Switzerland "calling on the Indian authorities and in particular security forces to respect the right to freedom of assembly and expression, and comply with international human rights principles in controlling the demonstrators".

"The use of force should be proportionate to the threat posed and firearms must only be used in dispersing a violent assembly to protect individuals against an imminent threat of death or serious injury," it said.

Massive protests

The United Nations called for a thorough and independent investigation into the killings.

It has also called on demonstrators "to protest using peaceful means only".

Indian-administered Kashmir has been hit by protests since June, after the government there granted land to a Hindu group that manages pilgrimage to a sacred Hindu shrine.

The move unleashed anger among Kashmir Muslims and has seen a re-emergence of mass demonstrations calling for independence from India.

The land transfer was subsequently abandoned, and that resulted in Hindus concentrated in the Jammu region of the state taking to the streets.

The Indian security forces have been heavily criticised for their handling of the protests and local people say many innocent people have been shot dead.

Many parts of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir are still under a curfew imposed last weekend.

A number of separatist leaders were placed under arrest ahead of a major rally called by separatists in Srinagar last Monday