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 Has India colonized Kashmir?

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PostSubject: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:57 pm

We have been hearing the phrase that India has colonized Kashmir. Is this really true?. Let us discuss this.

Let us ask this question to our heart. What a Kashmiri is not allowed to do in this country than any other Indian is?. Well, the argument would be that there is too many security personnel everywhere. It feels like a prison. Is this really true?. Why are these security personnel in Kashmir and not in each state. I think we know the answer as well. What if these were not there. Would you be able to even perform prayers in mosque. These terrorists even do not spare the kids and hospitals. How many lives have we lost in this decade ?. I remember terrorists asked all women to wear the burquas. They even threw the acid on face of some.

If politicians make the decision to remove this security. Then we would say that India do not care about Kashmir. Isn't it ?

Let us ask this question to ourselves and answer these questions. Let us not follow the venom uttered by some persons who claim to be representing you. I just remember speech of some prominent leader of Kashmir. He said "these Indians are colonizing Kashmir. Recently, they colonized some 30 acres of land in the name of operation 'sadbhavna'. Now these Indians are teaching Kashmiris Kids and taking them away from Islam. ". What a shame !!. Somebody is trying to heal your wounds and your are questioning them. Somebody only tried to teach the children so that they can face the world. Taliban do not represent Islam. I feel that dictats like that are simply opposite of freedom.

A fundamentalist state would always be a failed state. We have seen several examples. We should take lessons from Saudi Arabia which is prosperous. They are not prosperous because they only have Islam. They are because they did not let the fundamentalist rule them. and what do we feel that our messiah "Pakistan" would let Kashmir be independent. Let us look at the situation in other side of border. India does not send terrorists on that side still they did not prosper. because unless they change they would never be.They have made Kashmir on their side a haven for terrorist camps ?

Let us do what we feel what is right and simply not because some say so. Let us understand what is freedom now. Let us decide ourselves.
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Mee
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:08 am

Quote :
What a Kashmiri is not allowed to do in this country than any other Indian is?
.
Kashmiris are arrested in India with impunity. There have been so many cases of unwarranted arrests and harrassment by various Indian police agencies against Kashmiris in India that it would take up a lot of my time just to list all of them here. But thanks to google you can look those cases up yourself.
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voice
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:47 am

Indian security is only looking for terrorists. Once the violence ends, confusion at both sides would end. Prosperity would return to the 'Jannat'. Let us wait for that time.
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Mee
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:28 am

Yes we are waiting for that time as well when Kashmir would be independent
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:54 am

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Yes we are waiting for that time as well when Kashmir would be independent

Then you will be waiting for eternity.
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Abode of
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PostSubject: Colonization   Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:22 pm

The author of this segment has to be crazy or a staunch Indian.

1) A 100,000 plus Kashmiris killed.
2) Umpteen number of security council resolutions.
3) Thousands of Kashmiris rotting in Indian jails.
4) Scores of our sisters raped.
5) Barring Human rights watch and Amnesty International from coming in and conducting investigations.
6) Thousands of unmarked graves in all areas of Kashmir.
7) Blatant use of our natural resources like water or timber and we get peanuts in return.
8) Indiscriminate firings on the chests of peaceful protesters repeatedly over so many years.
9) A million people shouting in UNISON "AZAADI".
10) The most densely militarized zone in the world....don't tell me you need 800,000 troops to protect Kashmir from Kashmiris.
11) Economic blockades which continue for weeks and now months.
12) A place where children have no milk to drink because of a curfew imposed to stop people from voicing their right to self determination.
13) A Colonizing country like India which praises its jawans and rewards them medals over killing innocent civilians in fake encounters.

YES, INDIA IS A COLONIZER AND EVEN MORE CRUEL THAN THE BRITISH COLONIZERS.
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Voice
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PostSubject: Reply   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:37 pm

I feel you are just misleading the discussion with your incorrect facts. A truth can
withstand million lies.


>>1) A 100,000 plus Kashmiris killed.
Totally incorrect. Even if you add foreign millitants - pakistan and afganitan. and even if add those people who have died in rest of India due to terror of these millitants.

>>2) Umpteen number of security council resolutions.SO ??

>>3) Thousands of Kashmiris rotting in Indian jails.
Do you also know why they are in?. I do not need to tell the reason. Today some terrorists are holding 4 children hostage. and I am sure you would support those as well.

>>4) Scores of our sisters raped.
Yes raped but Who raped them ?. Your own brothers and you know them as well.

>>5) Barring Human rights watch and Amnesty International from coming in and conducting investigations.Yes, this is allowed here in India only. A democracy.

>>6) Thousands of unmarked graves in all areas of Kashmir.Every Indian feels same for a death in Kashmir as in jaipur or Ahmedabad.

>>7) Blatant use of our natural resources like water or timber and we get peanuts in return.Indian has been giving lot of grants. For your Information, India is giving more than 7 times than what is receiving. I would request you to read something about finance.

>>Cool Indiscriminate firings on the chests of peaceful protesters repeatedly over so many years.In recent violence 39 persons have been killed. Equally persons have been killed in jammu as well.and you know yesterday, in a polictical rally in Tirupari, scores of people were killed because of large number of crowd. If Indians were so brutal why they not killed hundreds out of lakhs ?. I think you know the answer as well.

>>9) A million people shouting in UNISON "AZAADI".I do not want to comment on that.

>>10) The most densely militarized zone in the world....don't tell me you need >>800,000 troops to protect Kashmir from Kashmiris.
Figures incorrect. Could you tell me when then so many troops?. what is the reason?

>>11) Economic blockades which continue for weeks and now months.
Totally incorrect. Only In recent violence, there has been blockade for 8 days. Please use words like week and months correctly.

>>12) A place where children have no milk to drink because of a curfew imposed to stop people from voicing their right to self determination.
I hope you know what curfew means and why it is relaxed. Why did you hurriyat leaders then call for bandh?. Why did they force shop-keepers to close their shops.

>>13) A Colonizing country like India which praises its jawans and rewards them medals over killing innocent civilians in fake encounters.In India we only praise them for killing millitants. I know about millitants about how much money they get by putting a bomb in a bus or train full of people.

>>YES, INDIA IS A COLONIZER AND EVEN MORE CRUEL THAN THE BRITISH COLONIZERS.India a only country which has not attacked any nation so far. This simply speaks who is colonizer.

I really feel pity on your ignorance who cannot differentiate between right and wrong?. I feel you are one of those people who only blame others for all there woes and feel that by complaining all your problems would be solved.

Army only came when violence started in Kashmir. Why did n't you defended your own Kashmiris who happen to be Pandits. Your prominent Hurriyat leaders called openly to rape Kashmiri pandits women that time. and still you support those leaders.

What do you think India has options to contain this violence?. What would happen if security is no there?. Take today case, millitants are holding up 4 children as hostage.
Yes, those millitants who claim to be on 'jehad' to fight so called unjustice. If Army does not care about kashmiris then they could have blown the whole house in which militants and children.A army jawan has died in the incident but who in Kashmir cares.
I am sure some religious franatics would still support those millitants.

The only problem with you guys is that most of the things in your life is guided by your religion. You could never understand true Islam. People are commiting lot of crimes and later they justify it as in the name of religion.

Why cant you people take part in election and form your local govenment and end this violence. There has been National conference and PDP. Instead of saying for Independence. You have resources and security. If you cannot do it now how can you manage your country. You would never take part in election as you know you cannot manage yourselves. You only know to blame others. You do not know how many times you would divide your own Kashmir fighting. Root cause of ours is education. You only want to be educated in your religious schools and you never know and you would never knew how much world has changed. and if somebody wants to educate you , you say they are taking you away from Islam. Enlighten yourself before you want to enlighten your people.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:33 am

Quote :

Why cant you people take part in election and form your local govenment and end this violence.

Because their goal is to create a fundamentalist Islamic state and even if they win the elections they won't be able to do that.

Their best friends are Pakistan - a failed terrorist state on the brink of anarchy and Taliban - who don't know the meaning of a civil society.

The only thing that is keeping Kashmir from becoming an anarchy like Pakistan and going back to the middle ages like Afghanistan under Taliban is the Army.
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Abode of
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PostSubject: Colonization   Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:54 am

All your answers are biased, derogatory and completely false......and yes you haven't replied to my query of why Amnesty International and Human rights watch have not been permitted to conduct Independent investigations in Kashmir.

You are one of those Fascist Indians who believe that you can do no wrong.

I am sorry that I even initiated a discussion with you....I should have known that discussions can only be carried forward with just and knowledgeable people.

Anyways I apologize for all I said.Truly India is a great democracy and as you have rightly quoted" so what if United Nations has passed so many resolutions on Kashmir" SO WHAT if Indian army showers bullets on the chests of innocent protesters, So what if our Women are raped, So what if we hate you for being the transgressors and occupiers/colonizers.

In order to quantify my accusations which u will not believe anyway....I want you to go to the offices of the State Human rights commission in J&K, Check how many cases are pending against army officials but because of AFSPA no one can touch those Indian brutes, Check Amnesty internationals website, Check Human rights watch website, Check UNO website on Kashmir resolutions and enlighten yourself on what it says about Kashmir, check the American Government/British Government websites on how they view Kashmir, check mass rape evidence against Indian army at Kunan Poshpora, check your home ministry files for Civilians killed in Kashmir. For your kind information Indian army regularly uses civilians as Human shields against militant attacks especially in rural areas.

When a country like India becomes so blind that it cannot see what it is doing in KASHMIR...that is the time we brand it as a COLONIZER.

I want you to go and read some facts before commenting here and misleading people.....intellectuals like Vir Sanghvi, Arundhati Roy, Narsimha RAi and Atal Behaari Vajapyee have accepted Indias wrong doings in Kashmir but if you still want to fantasize and please yourself by not accepting Indian follies in kashmir...then continue to live in a fools paradise.....who am I to convince you or stop you.

I am not going to carry this discussion forward but I once again implore you to read some facts first before you start commenting.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:17 am

Quote :

When a country like India becomes so blind that it cannot see what it is doing in KASHMIR...that is the time we brand it as a COLONIZER.

Just becuase you brand it as such, it doesn't become true. No body in the world, with the exception of your best friend, terrorist, and anarchy of Pakistan, recognizes India as a "colonizer" in Kashmir.

Perhaps the strangest things is that your leaders such as "Geelani" want to join an anarchy and terrorist state like Pakistan who in past just gave away a part of Kashmir to China on a silver platter for free.

Its obvious that the land "Kashmir" has no value for you guys. Your intention is to carve out whatever small piece of land you possibly can out of Kashmir to create an Islamic fundamentalist state. Otherwise, you would have been fighting elections, joining (or maybe even leading) coalition governments in Delhi and addressing any real and imaginary grievances that may exist by policy or legal decisions.

But no, you choose to follow a destructive course of action rather than hundreds of constructive paths that are available to you under Indian democracy.
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mir
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:31 am

Quote :
No body in the world, with the exception of your best friend, terrorist, and anarchy of Pakistan, recognizes India as a "colonizer" in Kashmir

As if India would care, when it doesnt even respect the UN resolutions. By defying the UN resolutions, it by default becomes an occupier, and hence a colonizer.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:50 am

Quote :

As if India would care, when it doesnt even respect the UN resolutions. By defying the UN resolutions, it by default becomes an occupier, and hence a colonizer.

Unfortunately for you, the UN resolutions on Kashmir are dead. Even UN doesn't attach any weight on it. The only reason you are harping on UN resolution is because your best friend and terrorist anarchy of Pakistan does the same.

What is not dead (yet) is your violent separatist movement which seeks to establish an Islamic fundamentalist state with the help of terrorist state of and anarchy of Pakistan and Taliban style.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:53 am

From what I can see UN definitely won't be helping anyone in establishing a fundamentalist state and hence their early demise. Your only recourse (when you realize it) is Indian democracy (for whatever it is worth). Until then keep fighting.
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:09 am

it is a very sad state that people do not want to accept the reality and facts...
.....mr.economist pls furnish the figures which would tell me that india is spending 7 times more than what it is earning from kashmir and if that includes the hydro-electricity that we are exporting...either give statistical data or dnt give such statements...
i think that abode did not mention is that the number of kashmiris who are lingering in indian prisons are there without any trial...well if that is the right procedure in a democracy then i accept it and this is not me but state human rights watch who is saying it...
indian media made a hue and cry when mass graves were found in iraq...pls comment upon them in kashmir..see u cnt justify them by writing about blasts in ahmedabad or in bagalore..what about the people who have disappeared from army's custody which amounts to more than 25,000...which blasts in india would justify that..
....things have to be seen from right perspective and nobody needs to be biased here..how can anyone justify the indian governments decission for barring local news channels in kashmir from telecasting news..why and what was the need..just because they were showing what the national media is not..
you call pakistan a failed terrorist state..agreed..tell me how has india succeeded in becoming the world's largest democracy which it claims to be..in broad day light a mosque was raised to ground by hindu fanatics and extremists and who later on went to rule the country...u claim that india has more muslims than in pakistan..so what???...there condition is worse than dalits in india and its not me but SACHHAR committe which says it..
wake up brothers...
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mee
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:20 am

@ather

Brother, i think hated-in and guest are just full of hot air and havent got a clue about what Kashmir issue is about.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:05 am

Quote :

you call pakistan a failed terrorist state..agreed..tell me how has india succeeded in becoming the world's largest democracy which it claims to be..in broad day light a mosque was raised to ground by hindu fanatics and extremists and who later on went to rule the country...

Democracy doesn't mean "perfection". Democracy means a will and a desire to improve the lives of people in the and resolving disputes and grievances through electoral process and mutually acceptable means - something that separatists such as yourself and your best buddies Pakistan and Taliban don't understand. Hence, each passing year Pakistan goes down the drain and wants to take Afghanistan and Kashmir down with it also. Unfortunately for them and you, the world has run out of patience.

Quote :

u claim that india has more muslims than in pakistan..so what???...there condition is worse than dalits in india and its not me but SACHHAR committe which says it..
wake up brothers...

I will ignore your propaganda for now, until you learn how to phrase your statements in a more factual manner. By the way do you also look at positive aspects related to Muslims in India or just negative?
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Ravinder
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PostSubject: Re : Has India Colonized Kashmir ?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:50 am

Hi All

After going thru all replies and counter replies, I could not hold myself from plunging in.

There are always 2 sides of each issue, and Kashmir is no different.

On one side, we have seen the restrictions, Curfew, firing on protesters, beating common kashmiris, attack on Ambulances, etc - all pointing to a Sick mind. Maybe because of hatred or pervasive thinking but it is true.

On the other side, we have seen many non-kashmiri, non-muslims coming out in support of Kashmiris, scores of journalists, irrespective of any religion, caste or creed providing true situation on ground, people from every walk of life out on streets protesting.

Now, I will come to a third face - the face of Dark terrorism. 3 crazy guys enter a house and hold 4 small children and 3 adults to ransom to save their skin. And surprising I dont find any mention of this in Kashmiri newspapers today. So what do we get from this ?

My dear brothers - there is neither Colonization nor free hand given - it is just a section of politicians, who for their own petty gains, create such situations. And who is at the receiving end - poor Kashmiri fellow ! The farmer who is unable to sell his crop, the fruit grower whose fruits have rotten without any means to send the same to markets, the daily labourer who has nothing left since he could nto work for last 2 months.

And this is same for both Kashmir and Jammu - the common, poor man whether Muslim or Hindu or Sikh - all suffering the misery. And who are the culpirts - The Geelanis, The Advanis, The Abdullahs and The Muftis. Common, lets face it.
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PostSubject: Re:Has India colonized kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:49 pm

I know you people will not accept the facts inspite of being provided the proof.Either you have turned blind and can not see the facts due to your fanatic patriotic sentiments or you know the fact and try to hide it as a normal criminal would do in such circumstances.You people have been given references but you are still adamant and dont accept the fact.I think it is useless to talk to people like you who dont accept any logic.India can not hold kashmir for long.By doing so it is itself going in loss.I think india should leave kasmir and live and let live.As has been rightly said by Arundati Roy India needs as much independence from kashmir as kasmir does.It is none of the concern of Indians what kasmiris will do without India.Kashmir belongs to kashmiris and they have right of self determination.India should shun their false arrogance and accept the fact so that both Indians and Kashmiris can live in peace.
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:57 pm

@ guest2 and hated-in...
i am sorry brothers but it is pointless to either debate or to have a dialogue with u coz in each and every blog u either make stories instead of accepting the facts..i mentioned SACHHAR committe report which u do not want to accept..u do not want to take the blame on those people who raised babri masjid to ground and instead would give me ur definition of democracy..its wasting time with u people..
@ ravinder....
brother i agree with u..i always request people here to have a debate or a dialogue with an open mind and write well established facts and datas to support ur arguments..but its always the opposite side..whatever u wrote i agree to most of it..ask me brother..everyone here in either jammu or in kashmir is going in loss..and the biggest losers in all this are the fruit growers of kashmir because of the fact that fruit grows once a year and whatever u earn through its sale u invest it for the next crop..it is more painful than death for a baniya or a lala in jammu not to count money every evening before he shuts his office or shop..but the series of events were such that things were forced upon u and then went out of control..
1) one procession on the call of geelani or maulvi umar farooq...(weather right or wrong-debatable)
2) one shoot at site order by the adminstration and people got killed..
...and then things went out of control as we all know..
..brother terrorist and terrorism are against humanity and any relegion weather hinduism or islam..we all would agree with that..but then we need to keep the word terrorism seperate from the struggle of people against there basic human rights and there right to live with humility and dignity..what we witnessed in jammu is total terrorism and against humanity..but what we also saw in kashmir the use of force against common people holding non-voilent demonstration who were trying to raise there voice for there just demands was also terrorism..if army or police fire upon people who demand basic human rights,civil rights,right to live with humility and with equality then even that is also an act of terrorism...we should not be biased in our comments..
...people here have written "ur pakistan buddies"...well that is absolute rubbish..there is a section of our society who thinks on that line but then everyone has his own opinion..but the majority of kashmiris dnt have that opinion then y r some people here trying to put words in someone else's mouth..
....lets have a healthy debate and a dialogue which would at the end give us something positive otherwise it will be all useless...
regards
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peace
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PostSubject: correcting the myth   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:18 pm

there is a myth in india that kashmir is a pampered state and sucks the blood out of india and survives on subsidies from india.and also that the indian taxpayer is paying for the war in kashmir..lets analyze the facts with an open mind...
"

..."a survey last year was conducted by ABC consultants private ltd sson after the presentation of the union budget and the same survey was done in J&K state by strategic marketing unit and the facts were astonishing..an average kashmiri pays 3/4th of a rupee of whatever he earns to the government as direct or indirect tax..only 1/4th is spent here on activities and assets which serve the indigeneous economic system..not many people are aware that people in J$K pay indirect taxes everyday which are built in to the price of any product we buy from market which is being imported from india..what is also not well known that this tax does not go to the state but to the central government..in J&K every product has various taxes built into it and not just the sales tax paid to state government.and all such taxes go to the central government."

...in an economic research and survey for kashmir division(excluding ladakh and jammu) conducted few years back revealed that kashmir has the potential to even beat the likes of singapore..that is the potential that this place has...the biggest asset that kashmir has are its snowfed rivers and the potential of hydro-electricity is enormous to the extent that it can export electricity to the whole of north india..the problem is that it is not being harnessed..this is just one industry alone..we all know how much potential kashmir has in terms of tourism and the foreign exchange it can bring in..then comes the fruit industry..then comes saffron cultivation which is the best in the world and with it the most expensive putting that of iran behind it...then comes the handicraft..one industry which we never talk about are our vast resources of forests..the problem is that forest is still not an industry and it has enormous potential if utilized intelligently...

...kashmir has the ability to sustain once independent without any financial support either from india or pakistan..yes kashmir cannot survive in islolation as no other country can..and trade has to be with our historical markets in central asia along with pakistan and with the present markets in india too....
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:01 pm

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there is a myth in india that kashmir is a pampered state and sucks the blood out of india and survives on subsidies from india.and also that the indian taxpayer is paying for the war in kashmir..lets analyze the facts with an open mind...

No, there is no such myth. The actual fact and belief among the government and people is that Kashmir is a troubled region. And most Indians will probably pay up more in the form of taxes if they can afford to and if it brings peace in kashmir. The myth is that somehow India has colonized J&K and is hence robbing J&K (specially K not J and not L) of its resources.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: Has India colonized Kashmir?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:07 pm

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...in an economic research and survey for kashmir division(excluding ladakh and jammu) conducted few years back revealed that kashmir has the potential to even beat the likes of singapore

True, and India has the potential to be a world power. I would let you decide what is actually possible or not.
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