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corekashmiri
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PostSubject: What options does Kashmir have?   Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:22 am

what options does Kashmir have?

I am here once again as I got a good feeling that there are some members here who are seriously taking a deep look in the current
Kashmir situation and having some decent ideas.

I was kinda sick with the likes of Mana, Kashmiri(guest) who were speaking what they heard from Geelani, Yaseen etc and not applying their own minds in the topic 'Muzaffrabad Chalo'

The new topics like 'leadership crisis' , 'autonomy is the best solution' made me excited to share my thoughts with people whom i think, really think.
And I thank 'Admin' for putting up some really though provoking topics.

These were the same questions i had posed in my notes in Muzaffrabad Chalo topic.

In case the ones who havent read them, please do.

Continuing on the discussion for the topic of 'autonomy is the best solution' and 'leadership crisis', here are my thoughts

Leadership Crisis:

who are current political players in Kashmir:

1. Mad Man of kashmir politics
Geelani
: one who wants Kashmir to be pakistan

( I consider him the mad man of Kashmir Politics otherwise who would choose a hell to go into)

Does a common Kashmiri really want it? People thronging to his rally make me beleive they do?
What if it really happens, we will have the kashmir valley being part of what we call PoK today.
Now as a kashmiri i want to compare what kashmir in India had prior to 1989 and what PoK had then and has it now.((see my posts for 'Muzaffrabad chalo' topic))
How different was Kashmir as a state from any other state of India (for the time being i am not even discussing the privilege of having its own constitution and Article 370)
What privilege did PoK have in Pakistan? The privilege was that pakistan hand picks some one and lets him call himself the Prime Minister on Kashmir, who has no say what so ever in Pakistan politics,which by the way no one has there.

What will Kashmiris expect from them after knowing what they did to Bangladesh who were considered lesser muslims than east pakistan.(see my posts for 'Muzaffrabad chalo' topic for more details)
What does a kashmiri expect from them when they cant even handle what they have now. I dont think I have to explain this as well.

2. Blood sucking parasites of Kashmiri people and the so called Indian face of kashmiri leadership which are:

Omar/Farooq Abdulla & Mufi/Mehbooba sayed
: They are really the ones who really KNOW WHAT THEY WANT.

Their only job(want) is to see how they remain in power expecting all kinda goodies from India and expecting loyalty from kashmiris & rest of India whom they know they can fool every time.
Rest of Indians just equate them with corrupt politicians and take them as part of the corrupt lot, knowing fully well what their reasons are to form a govt when congress is in power or BJP or anyone else.
They know as long as they are in power they can bleed India on behalf of Kashmir and keep their personal wallets warm. They show one face to Kashmiris and another to rest of India.
Classic example Mufti and his govt first getting the approval for land transfer when they were in power without letting the people of Kashmir know what he was doing as then it was not a political at all, and then
doing a somersault on his own decision when ghulam nabi implemented it because the election was in november.
They want to come to power in Kashmir, become MPs in Indian parliament, become central ministers to bleed the department they are assigned to (not that they are different from any other politician in India).
Their only job is scavenging when time comes. (read my comments on them again in my posts for 'Muzaffrabad chalo')

Do you really want to vote for them, if you really do participate in elections. I as an Indian would advise you not to. Better to vote for probably maulvi omar farooq/yaseen if they ever decide to fight an election.

3. People who probably think and can see the difference between right and wrong, but the goal and vision is blurred.
The likes are Yaseen malik, maulvi omar farooq, etc

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

They know for sure Pakistan is not for them and that at least is a good sign and people of kashmir who support them at least know what is BAD for them if not good.
But seeking patronage and help from them is foolishness. the country which cant help its own people what can they provide you.
Read my comments further to support this argument.


For Kashmiris: Understanding the problem and working for its solution



For Pakistan, keeping the kashmir issue burning is required for its own survival. Do you agree ? I will give you my take on it. You can give your arguments as well.

We all know they dont have anything to do with development and growth of their own people, the only thing they have become masters of is extremism and terrorism. I dont need to go deep in that.Everyone knows that.

For Pakistan's politicians or dictators, there are only two issues which they always parrot to keep their nation together:
1. Everyone want to be a champion of Islam, giving their own definition. Some are milder and some are extremes. No one is bothered about education,development (anything to do with human development).
2. Everyone want to support Kashmir for their own cause,because thats the only thing they can sell to people as no one is directly affected there. Who is fighting? kashmiris.who is dying? kashmris. what do they do? sell this kashmir problem to its own people to remain in power. they give guns when they can, they back off when they have to or when world or america puts pressure on them.

For the sake of argument, if kashmir does become part of pakistan or an independent state, Pakistan having no issue to bind its own people together, no progressive leaders who thinks about growth and development. (Nah.. dont give me examples of Nawaz, Zardari etc they are corrupt politicians, i hope you agree. To some extent I felt that Musharraf was the best leader pakistan got for the first time in its life so far.)
What will the dictator or a politician sell to its people then?
what you would see is balochistan, punjab, NWFP fighting and getting destroyed and where would it leave Kashmiris, is anybody guess. you have the example of west pakistan before you. ((see my posts for 'Muzaffrabad chalo' topic for more details)).
Do you think you could then stop extremists from Pakistan, taliban from afghanistan from coming to kashmir.
Kashmir will become another islamic battlefield like Afghanistan, haven of the likes of taliban.
Do you really think you Can you stop them from that? they would have every right to come and exploit as they would say they helped you when you were destroying yourself.

Does a common Kashmiri understand this or he still sees pakistan from the prism of islam and not knowing what is really good for him.

Now lets see how kashmir would be if it separates from India.

Will Pakistan give PoK to Independent kashmir?? Anyone's guess. Why? they need it for the road to china which gives them missiles and other goodies. would China give aksai Chin to Kashmir? i am quite sure everyone knows the answer.
OK, now
To begin with, kashmir would need to have armed forces to protect itself from India, since Pakistan was a friend and you would think China would not be a threat as a friend's friend is a friend.
(alarm bell !!!, think Tibet, which is almost half of china, think aksai chin, do u think they will give it back to kashmir, as it was part of it. Think Xiang Jiang, which is also a muslim area in china fighting for independence and is close to kashmir. Do you think they would want taliban coming through kashmir to their place).
So armed forces of Kashmir will be built with the help of the "Reputed Pakistan Army" which have a history of not ackowledging the shahadat of their own soldiers in the Kargil war, Am i wrong here??
And of course the beloved of the world ISI would provide its expertise to kashmir armed forces and intellegence, the kind of expertise, it is providing to itself, taliban and kashmir. How I fear it....
And then at a geo-political level, US Russia,China (lets assume india is a weakling and doesnt have the guts to do anything as is the general perception). US wont want Kashmir to become a link between China and Pakistan and nor would Russia. Same would be the feeling for Chinese and Russians for Americans. Every one would like to woo Kashmir, the way US and China did to pakistan and we see what condition it is in. Do you really see what condition pakistan is in ??
Or If Russia or China decide to do what they did to Afghanistan or Tibet, you see what state Afghanistan is since 1980, almost 28 years. i wont want to see kashmir in a similar state as Afghanistan since last 28 years or pakistan since 60 years.

you would be so called an independent country but who would like to live a life the way an Afghan or a pakistani does.

At least from India side, as an Independent kashmiri, i wont be worried. Why? because politicians in India have no sense of geo-politik or they dont have the time for it. Had India been playing geo-political games, the way US,China, Russia do, India would have solved the kashmir issue long time back or for that matter any other issue which they face. They would have changed the demographics of the state till now , the way pakistan has in PoK, the way China has in Tibet. By the way do people on the side of PoK speak Kashmiri? Every time i have seen them on TV, they speak urdu. I have seen no one from PoK speak kashmiri. So you will have Urdu speaking kashmiri in Srinagar the way it is in Muzaffrabad or marie.

Politicians in India are busy to keep their kursis intact, while a normal indian though suffering is working with whatever means he has and moving forward. But there are some, few, in every field who makes this country move ahead inspite of corruption, inspite of poverty, and so many things which you can easily list here as the negatives of India.(which by the way kashmiri is quite good at finding flaws in India without seeing the merits.(see my posts for 'Muzaffrabad chalo' topic page2 for more details).

These days you see hordes of Pakistanis coming to India for work, to sing, dance, play cricket, do business, because they dont have the same avenues to do that in their own country. Please dont tell me its media propaganda now. Its not only true just for pakistanis, so may people from western world are coming to work in India because right now its one of the biggest markets and the biggest consumer base. now trust me its not media propaganda.

I dont know whether i should laugh or cry when some one suggest that our historical markets are rawalpindi via jhelum or what ever. They there are busy buying guns to kill and get killed, does a kashmiri think that they would spare money to buy their apples when they are fighting for their survival with Guns from pakistanis themselves, from taliban from north and then probably americans.
The world is coming to India because its the biggest consumer market in the world today be it any industry. And they dont go Pakistan, do i need to specify why?
And you look for markets in muzaffrabad and rawalpindi??

Why do you want to put yourselves in the same state as Pakistan put itself after separating from India? Why do you want to do yourself a Bangladesh?
Was kashmir what it is now, same as what kashmir was prior to 1989.
There were some comments from users like 'Srinagar' and 'Ather' who it seems have seen those days.
I can't blame the ones who were born in the later part of 80s and 90s, who just saw kashmir under siege.Since they always saw Indian army outside their homes, its not their fault to think that India is subjugating them. They didnt see what Kashmir was prior to 1989, when there was no army, nor will anyone tell them or teach them why in the first place did the BSF/CRPF come in the first place. Why didnt it go to some other state.
Nobody would tell them the blunder which kashmiris committed themselves by getting FINGERED by pakistan to do what they did.
Nobody would tell them what kashmir got from the foreign mercenaries from afghanistan and pakistan and how they affected them.
Nobody would tell them that they had their own constitution which no Indian state has, they had article 370 which no one else has. kashmiri was an Indian outside Kashmir, but an Indian was never a Kashmiri in Kashmir.
Nobody would tell them that kashmiri could do business any business wherever he wanted to in India and is still doing, but that was not true for any other Indian in Kashmir.
He would face the same problems as the rest of Indians and he would get the same fruits of democracy as the rest of Indians.
He was affected by corruption, rigging in elections etc the same way as any other Indian was.
Nobody would tell him that half of the Indian movies were made in Kashmir.
Nobody would tell him how similar his life was to any other Indian in any other state and how different it was from a Pakistani/Afghani.


What then went wrong with kashmiri people, why to be with Pakistan, why to separate?
Was it just because Pakistan was an Islamic state and you wanted to join them or get separate just for religion?

Quoting Ather".autonomy was just a tool to integrate kashmir with india and nothing else and as years went by autonomy became immaterial because india had strengthened its grip on kashmir".
In what way did autonomy get eroded and in what way did india strenfthen its grip.
If you point it to rigging of elections, who did it? Farooq Abdulla(kashmiri) and NC and his son today fools kashmiris still
Do you think that rigging happened only in Kashmir and no where else in India.


The kind of articles which we have been reading on TOI and HT (considered to be the mouthpieces
of India govt.) from the likes Vir Sanghvi, Swaminathan Aiyar, Arundhati Roy, Kushwant Singh, Jug Suraiya etc.
should at least put to rest the arguments by some of my friends regarding Indian propaganda for whatever they consider propaganda
And such articles are not new, with Barkha Dutt and the rest were doing it for Kashmiris since long.

What does this signify, if not the Indian govt., but at least the people of India are sick of this Kashmir problem and kashmiris.
The psyche of Indian people is coming to a conclusion, that if a Kashmiri wants hell, why are we hell bent on stopping them from choosing that.
If they think, India is or was ruling them, let them choose their own destiny.
But there are some Idealist Indians who still care (the %age of which I think has diminshed a lot ) and who dont want the same fate for Kashmiris as that of a pakistani or Afghani or a bangladeshi.

They still think of kashmiris as Indians, who should get the best of at least what they get.

They know that Kashmir was no way different than any other state of india, and were also fine with the privileges kashmir had.
But now they are thinking, what are we getting out if it. should we really care about Kashmir and kashmiri when they themselves want to go into an unknown oblivion where we for sure know whats going to happen to them. We know that its going to end up like another Pakistan/Afghanistan. But if kashmiris are so desperate to get it, Give it to them.

That is the reason of the articles, the reason for agitation in jammu (land transfer was just a spark which put fire to the final bit of indian people's patience with kashmir and kashmiris)

what options does Kashmir have? Open question still. decision is up to kashmiris.
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Koshur
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:15 am

Welcome back Corekashmiri,

I think we will have a good time debating this issue since I am writing about this on my blog as well.
I will reply to your detailed accoutn sometime later today or tomorrow.


@Admin,
I think your other posts on the history part need a little clean up . I cannot post a topic there?
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:04 am

Quote :
by corekashmiri: We all know they dont have anything to do with development and growth of their own people, the only thing they have become masters of is extremism and terrorism. I dont need to go deep in that.Everyone knows that.

Hello corekashmiri, your article is a very informative read. however, don't you think your above statement is a bit off the mark . Given, the Pakistani governemnt is not an ideal model of of how governments should be run, but accusing their very existence as meant to foster terrorism and extremism is a bit extreme of an argument.
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PostSubject: Reply to Reporter   Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:07 pm

Dear Reporter,

Give me just one example,just ONE which could probably make me think otherwise?

Sometimes I think:
the life of pakistan,despite being an Islamic Republic of Pakistan, fully 100% muslim.
the life of democracy despite having an unifying factor called ISLAM , the basic fundamental on which the nation was born.(don't you think the whole fundamental was wrong).
the life of their neighbour afghanistan.
the life of ex-east pakistan.
the life they have made of kashmiris.
what they made sikhs to go through in India.
the end of their political leaders whether its a dictator or some one else.

What does world know Pakistan for these days? Osama and Pakistan are Synonymous now and so is ISI.
Trust me its just not my view. Am I wrong??

These are just few points, I dont want to see Kashmir in the same state.

When Pakistan was born, jinnah and his likes also said the same things which we hear from the people who want to separate from India.
If a nation is born on wrong fundamentals, if its birth is a result of division of people, if its birth uproots people from their place where they have been since eternity. The birth which makes its people to forget their own history and deep roots.
The birth of such is not a right thing, and it will suffer.

You have living examples to learn from. You know who i am referring to.

And then I see INDIA. Do you??

I just want the kashmiris in kashmir to take a very hard look of what their Goal is when they say they want to separate from India.
Thats the only reason of my posts here.

regards
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Kashmir
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PostSubject: Which is a better state?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 pm

What decision should we take for our children - India or Pakistan ?. With whom we would like our future to be ?.

1. India and live like any other Indian.
2. With Pakistan and live like pakistani.
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Me
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:06 am

One more option...

3. Stay independent and live happily
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guest2
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:50 am

if you really want to live happily, the only option is:
TO be with INDIA
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:43 am

There is a major difference between Kashmiri seperatist movement of today and Indian independence movement. The difference is that Indian independence movement was about equal rights and representation; while as, the Kashmiri seperatist movement is religious in nature fueled by fundamentalist like Geelani and supported by Pakistan which is basically a terrorist state.

Another major difference is that Indian Independence movement was broad based. People from all religions (sikhs, hindus, muslims, christians, parsis, etc participated). Kashmiri seperatist movement only involves Muslims and only those Muslims who live in Kashmir valley.

Now what will realistically happen if Kashmir seperatist movement succeeded? Most likely there will be referendum? People in Jammu will vote to stay with India. People in Leh/Laddhak will vote to stay with India, and Kashmir valley may decide to split. In the best case scenario, you would only be left with Kashmir valley. In fact right before the partition many Muslims from Kashmir valley will migrate into India because they would prefer to live in a secular country instead of another Taliban style country.

When India-Pakistan split, most Muslims stayed back in India and that is why India has a bigger Muslim population than Pakistan. Similarly if Kashmir valley splits, I can bet that most Kashmiri Muslims will ultimately migrate to India. The seperatist in the valley are brainless. They don't know how to think either for their own good or for the good of Kashmiries.
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:21 am

Quote :
The difference is that Indian independence movement was about equal rights and representation; while as, the Kashmiri seperatist movement is religious in nature fueled by fundamentalist

Wrong. The Indian independence movement was about freedom from occupying Britain just as the Kashmir freedom movement is about freedom from occupying India. Difference of perspectives. You want to give it a communal color; thats your problem.
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:19 pm

Quote :

Wrong. The Indian independence movement was about freedom from occupying Britain just as the Kashmir freedom movement is about freedom from occupying India. Difference of perspectives. You want to give it a communal color; thats your problem.

It is your separatist movement that is new, not the so called Indian occupation? Kashmir has always lied within the Indian cultural sphere of influence ever since history began (even before countries started drawing borders). When was Kashmir outside the Indian spear of Influence? Please take your separatist movement somewhere else and leave Kashmir where it belongs - in India.
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am

Quote :
Kashmir has always lied within the Indian cultural sphere of influence ever since history began (even before countries started drawing borders). When was Kashmir outside the Indian spear of Influence?

To your question about when Kashmir was outside the Indian sphere [not spear] of influence; how about for the majority of recorded history? The mountain passes were a natural barrier for any cultural mingling with the Indian society living in the plains south of the Banihal pass; most previous trade and cultural exchange took place through the jhelum valley road (linking Uri to Muzaffarabad) and through the norrthern passes. That explains our different language, culture, way of dressing, diet, fair skin, to just mention a few pointers that suggest that Indians did not influence us much in the past. Infact culturally and ethnically, we have more similarities with central asian people, like Afghans, Tajiks, people of Sinkiang, and even Iranians and northern Pakistanis.

I hope you will learn more as and when Admin decideds to update the history part of this forum. It is about time
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hated-in
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:52 am

Ridiculous
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peace
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:52 am

@hated-in
why is it rediculous what reporter wrote because it dosent fit in ur ideology..dnt make stories brother and read history..have u ever heard about silk route..it went to central asia via kashgar and not towards indian plains...have u heard about khyber pass???...pls brother read history and then write otherwise it looks meaningless and made-up story..
and why does guest2 always insist upon kashmir's prosperity and development with india only and if it was i cnt see any in kashmir..i seriously think its unworthy to even read leave apart comment upon biased statements like these..
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:27 am

I can support hated in with argument in terms of Ancient petroglyphs near Chilas have been discovered in vast numbers.

Which belong to Ashoka period and before
which proves that The region was inhabitated by Buddihst and pre Buddihst period.

This is not matter of Idealogy.

Mountains has not been barrier of floursing civilization

You can check the names of mountains near chinese border< up in norhtern areas occupied by pakistan,
The name of those mountain derive there origin from Ladhak region.

Following is quote from one of the articles

"There are more than 20,000 pieces of rock art and petroglyphs all along the highway that are concentrated at ten major sites between Hunza and Shatial. The carvings were left by various invaders, traders and pilgrims who passed along the trade route, as well as by locals. The earliest date back to between 5000 and 1000 BC, showing single animals, triangular men and hunting scenes in which the animals are larger than the hunters. These carvings were pecked into the rock with stone tools and are covered with a thick patina that proves their age."

Now if we are debating the 5000 year old history based on what religion you follow today, is truly unfair.
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:57 am

Hey everyone
There are really four possible outcomes
1. Indian Kashmir
2. Pakistani Kashmir
3. Independant Kashmir
4. Divided Kashmir
Of these, divided Kashmir seems most probable. India claims a right to Kashmir under the Accession. Pakistan claims a right to Kashmir because of the Muslim majority.Both want to have economic benefits from Kashmir. Kashmir militants want their own Kashmir.
India and Pakistan are unlikely to ever come to a decision.
Neither wants an Independant kashmir.
the only option left is a divided kashmir... everyone loses.
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PostSubject: what options does kashmir have   Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:21 pm

For Battas and hindus- India
For Fanatic Muslims-Pakistan
For moderate/liberal honest Kashmiri muslims-Independence
For corupt Kashmiris- Indian hegemony/Pakistani hegemony
For Buddhis/Sikhs- Wherever the majority takes them once their interests are safeguarded.

Bottom line = One thing is certain......overwhelming majority of Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India. Smile
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anon
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PostSubject: Re: What options does Kashmir have?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:20 am

more than 60% eligible voters of the first phase in J&K seem to have seen through the separatist's agenda. Way to go- aam aadmi!!
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